Presence, Purpose, and Connection: Season 2 Wrap Up Ep 47
Highlights from the episode:
The recurring theme no one planned for this season
How presence creates deeper connection in every area of life
The surprising emotional thread tying conversations together
Why “making it” doesn’t always bring the fulfillment people expect
The importance of staying open, present, and willing to evolve
Why joy and ease matter more than we admit
Podcast show notes:
Season 2 of Things No One Tells You turned into something I didn’t fully expect.
Yes, we talked to Olympians, musicians, broadcasters, athletes, and entrepreneurs. But underneath all of those stories was a much bigger conversation about presence, connection, and what success actually means once you finally get there.
In this special season wrap-up episode, I revisit some of the moments that stayed with me most. Angela Ruggiero shares why life works best when we’re fully present and “playing jazz.” Joan Lunden reflects on navigating motherhood while building a groundbreaking career. Jeff Francoeur opens up about helping kids feel valued in sports and in life. Vernon Davis shares the hard truth that success alone doesn’t guarantee happiness or stability. And Ani DiFranco reminds us that authentic connection may actually be the whole point.
What You’ll Hear:
Angela Ruggiero on fun, presence, and “playing jazz” (01:00)
Joan Lunden on motherhood and breaking barriers (07:41)
Jeff Francoeur on youth sports and feeling valued (12:55)
Vernon Davis on success, money, and learning the hard way (20:08)
Ani DiFranco on connection over achievement (26:51)
The biggest lessons and themes from Season 2 (35:16)
This season brought so many honest conversations, unexpected insights, and moments I’ll carry with me for a long time. I’m incredibly grateful to everyone who has been part of our community this season.
Season 3 officially launches this summer, and we have so many exciting conversations ahead. Be sure to subscribe, rate, and share Things No One Tells You so you don’t miss what’s next.
To watch or listen to the full episode click on the blog links below
Ep 35 What Really Matters in Youth Sports with Jeff Francoeur
Ep 37 What It Really Takes to Win Gold with Angela Ruggiero
Ep 39 Saying Yes Before You Feel Ready with Joan Lunden
Ep 40 Second Acts After an NFL Career with Vernon Davis
Ep 42 Building a Career Without Compromising Your Voice with Ani DiFranco
Be sure to subscribe to Things No One Tells You—Lindsay’s podcast all about the real, unfiltered conversations we don’t always have but should. From big names to everyday voices, each episode dives into the moments that shape us. Listen wherever you get your podcasts!
Follow along with Lindsay below!
Full Transcript
[00:00:00] Lindsay: Hey guys, this is Things No One Tells You. And this, if you can believe it or not, is our season two wrap. So this is our episode where we get together as a team and figure out what the moments are that feel the most impactful, maybe the most surprising, but the thing that really sort of nails the thing no one tells you from each guest's perspective.
[00:00:20] So going into this season, we didn't necessarily have a big theme that we wanted to cover, but one really started to emerge. And we should mention that we were talking to Olympians, musicians, authors, and athletes. But the thing that kept coming up was reinvention, pivoting, and also the specific notion of following something that just feels really easy.
[00:00:42] So it's not just about success, but instead really how to actually live in the moment and how to pivot when life happens. So we begin with one of my favorite guests of all time, Angela Ruggiero, a hockey star. She's a four-time United States Olympian with the hockey team. She was my analyst when I covered the Olympics for Beijing, and then most recently she was with me in Milan.
[00:01:06] And I was so grateful because that meant ultimately that we were able to cover the women's gold medal hockey game together. And that is something that I will take with me for the rest of my life, because there is nothing like watching a super high-stakes sporting event, a moment where you know lives are gonna change on either side of the win or the loss, with someone who has lived it, who is invested. After all, she still considers that team a sisterhood.
[00:01:33] So, Angela Ruggiero, it was amazing to cover this, but she's one of the people who shared the fact that, really ,there's so much more that goes into what you're doing as an athlete when it comes to the camaraderie and learning how to play together. And without further ado, Angela Ruggiero. What is something that no one tells you that you have experienced from the journey that you think would be helpful for people to know?
[00:01:59] To have fun. Does that make sense? So the thing no one tells you is the importance of having fun? Yeah. I've had to learn- I didn't read- I had fun playing hockey. When I got a job, I wasn't good at it. I was, like, half-assing it. At work, when I wasn't having fun, it was the same thing. It was, like, dreadful.
[00:02:21] Like, when I'm with my kids, and they're being a pain in the butt, I remind myself. Like, when I'm having... Go into it with more joy and, like, I don't know. Like, I have to remind myself, and I wish someone had reminded me earlier, like, "Remember, when you have fun, you're, you thrive, Angela." And not that I don't have, I guess my, I don't know if I'm explaining myself.
[00:02:41] Yeah. It's the thread that I'm like, "Oh, when I'm enjoying myself, and I'm having fun, when I'm pri- when I'm remembering this is supposed to be fun, I'm following the right path. I'm in the moment with my kids or with my family, or I'm in the, Like, that's what life is supposed to be. Like, you don't have to follow the hard, you know?
[00:03:01] Even though it's hard, it's fun, if that makes sense. I think everyone will deal with hard times for certain; we know that. For sure. But it's making sure that we understand that it actually is supposed to feel easy sometimes. Feel easy. Maybe that's not fun, right? but easy. But you're right, but fun, I think that can feel like fun.
[00:03:22] Like, when I think back to this Olympic experience we're talking about, whenever someone asks me, I'm like, the feeling that comes to mind is just fun, and it also feels easy. And it's not easy, but it was like this feeling of everyone working together, you've got the people in position- Yeah.
[00:03:41]You'ree, you know, that the thing can get done. There are hard parts along the way, but you work together as a group and figure it all out. Like, but it feels just fun. Like, I don't know, it's hard to describe. I think it's like- But you're right. Simple... It's like aligned and present. You're present, and you're letting the moment come in.
[00:04:00] Like, you're feeling the moment, and you're then responding to the moment, and so it's like this light, like, it's not like the pressure of live TV and like the urgency of the thing. You're just like, you're like, "Oh yeah, this is fun." Like, "Let's go. Let's do it." And it's that, like maybe presentness.
[00:04:17] Yeah. I don't know if that makes sense... Yeah, and I think that presentness allows for connection. Yep. And that is something, too, that I think about a lot. It's like that personal connection, human connection that comes up.
[00:04:32] Jeff: Yeah.
[00:04:33] Lindsay: That, like, right, for me it feels like when we, when you and I are talking about a moment in hockey, and you, and it feels like, oh, that was fun and easy, is when you're making this point and you're like, "Yes, that makes so much sense," because it's also relatable.
[00:04:48] Yeah. And now I feel like I'm just talking deep thoughts with Lindsay. Yeah. But like- Yeah, but, yeah, there's some, there's a there Yeah, but you also had to receive that. Like, you had to be listening and open and present. Yeah. Which again, I've been in the same conversation with someone, and they're like stressed about what they're gonna say next, or
[00:05:05] They're not really there with you. So I think we did... I loved working with you 'cause it was like, "Oh, yeah, you're right," and like you, you genuinely were like present, listening, excited, hearing, and then you would ask a question and you'd draw something else out of me, and I'm like, "Oh yeah, and then this other time," and then like, "We should bring that up."
[00:05:25] So that's why I always use the expression jazz. It's like, you gotta play jazz. Right. I noticed that. I was like, there wasn't jazz music playing, but do you think everybody... Well, you, yeah. I, that's my expression to just say like, jazz music is like, I love jazz, I don't love jazz, but I like the idea of jazz, and like, that's hockey.
[00:05:43] You, you're, reading, reacting, you're responding in the moment. But to do that really well, which is a hockey player or a jazz musician or you with your kids, right? It's, you gotta be present, you gotta be listening, you gotta be open, it's gotta go both ways. And then you're kinda like, I say playing jazz, you're like, you're, moving the puck really well.
[00:06:02] And when Megan Keller sprints, sh- Heise knows where she is without calling for it all the way you know, all the way down the ice. She knows to send that puck, and you're like, you're there. That is the flow of life. Like, if you can get into the flow of life, and that's what I forget sometimes, if I get so, "I gotta get to this next thing, I gotta do this thing," and I'm in my head versus, like, present.
[00:06:25] Maybe that's what I'm looking for. Like, wow, right? The thing no one tells you is that part of the secret of enjoying life is being present and ha- and having fun, and that should feel easy. And light. I- And that's what we talked about, those players, they're having fun, they're light, they're like, there.
[00:06:44] And they're, and we could see in that final they were, like, choking their sticks a little, right? And they were a little nervous, and probably weren't, like, settled into their bodies with each other. And the second they did, they played jazz together, and they scored that goal, and they won the Olympics, right?
[00:06:59] They were there. What I really loved about my conversation with Angela was just that perspective on how important it is to really be in the moment. It's one of those things you hear all the time, but having someone describe what that really means, I think, is really relatable in many ways. But also just the fact of sometimes having to manufacture that underdog mentality.
[00:07:20] You see that in sports a lot. But also, I think we can relate that to just things in life. So I thought that was cool. And specifically, just the thought of going with the thing that feels easy, that really lights you up, that sometimes it should just be as simple as that. And that is something that my next guest also covered as well.
[00:07:41] That theme came up with Joan Lunden. Joan Lunden shared so many things from her longtime career at Good Morning America. She talked about following the breadcrumbs that led her really to that opportunity, and how that timing lined up with when she got the call that she was going to join Good Morning America, her dream job.
[00:08:03] It was followed 20 minutes later by the call that she was, in fact, pregnant. So I did not know all the details that went into that. I loved her book. I loved hearing that story about how she embraced that unknown bit of change, and what really came out of that next. So Joan really shares a lot about figuring things out as you go and following up on the opportunity.There are so many things that I wanna ask you about, 'cause this is so chock-full of just really fascinating, relatable stories on some levels.
[00:08:33] but how did you balance it? You found out that you got the job at GMA literally the same day you got the phone call that you were pregnant with your first child.
[00:08:42] Joan: Yeah, the phone call was 20 minutes after the phone call from the agent, "You got the job."
[00:08:47] Lindsay: I mean, that is…
[00:08:47] Joan: 20 minutes later, "Congratulations, you're pregnant."
[00:08:51] And it never really occurred to me, honestly, Lindsay, to say, "Ah, boy, bad timing. That would've been so great." I said, "All right, how am I gonna pull this one off?" And that's just how I've kind of always walked through my life, is just to figure it out. And you know, I have a 4th of July baby, my first little girl, Jamie, and they wanted me back in August.
[00:09:13] And I remember I called my agent and said, "You know, I've interviewed a lot of people from La Leche League, so I know I should breastfeed. Will you ask them if I can bring Jamie with me, because I'm gonna be breastfeeding?" Now, just remember, in 1979, that was one of the words that the FCC said you could not say on television.
[00:09:33] Breastfeeding? Breastfeeding. You could not say breast or breastfeeding on television. Right. And I was asking him to go to the ABC executives to ask if I could bring my baby to work because I was breastfeeding. Well, they just wanted me; they wanted my tush in that seat. They wanted to get the show kind of back on track, and so they said yes.
[00:09:54] I don't think they understood. Kudos to ABC for saying yes. I think that they felt it was gonna be the best-kept secret. I really do.
[00:10:03] I mean, they gave me a little, they gave me the dressing room next to mine- Yeah ... and put a crib in there. They put a crib in my office.
[00:10:10] Lindsay: Look, there's the picture.
[00:10:12] Joan: Oh, yeah, there I mean,
[00:10:13] Lindsay: That was amazing
[00:10:14] That's baby Jamie. Baby Jamie. Yeah.
[00:10:15] Joan: Yeah.
[00:10:16] Lindsay: I mean, that is so special.
[00:10:17] Joan: And they, I really, and oh, and then we had a press conference the first day after the show, and the PR guy took me aside and said, "Whatever you do, do not say that you have that baby upstairs."These are reporters, these are TV critics.
[00:10:32] They will chew you up and spit you out. They'll think that you will never be able to do your job." I said, "All right, I really wasn't gonna bring it up." So now we walk into the studio, and it's packed, and David Hartman welcomes them all there, and he introduces me- ... as the new co-host of Good Morning America, and I open it up to questions.
[00:10:52] First question, Time Magazine, "We hear you're bringing your baby to work. How did you work that out with ABC?" Like, my eyes shot to the back of the room where all the executives were, but I had to answer his question.
[00:11:04] Lindsay: What was their reaction?
[00:11:05] Joan: Were they like I said, "Well, ABC actually gave it to me in my contract that I could bring my baby to work because I'm breastfeeding."
[00:11:16] Print that. Second question, Newsweek. "This show travels the globe. What are you gonna do?" I said- Actually, ABC gave me permission to take the baby anywhere I go for at least the first year. And by the way, nine months later, I took her with me on the Concorde to London to cover the wedding of Prince Charles and Lady Diana.
[00:11:38] Lindsay: That's amazing.
[00:11:40] Joan: And I remember sitting in a turret at the, where they keep the royal jewels in the Tower of London. In a turret. And they had to pull up- Oh ... you know, like, lines to give us electricity so they could plug in the blow dryer so that the guy could blow my hair dry.
[00:11:58] And I'm sitting with Jamie in my lap, ready to go down and see the jewels of London. I mean, it was really a pretty crazy, extraordinary life. And it was- Yeah ... a lot of fun being able to share it with everyone.
[00:12:12] Lindsay: With Joan Lunden, the other thing I loved about her conversation was the live nature of us doing it in front of the library audience.
[00:12:19] I thought it was really cool how she honed in on just saying yes. You know, if you don't know how to do the thing, just figure it out as you go. I know there were so many times I did that early in my career, and sometimes that I'd be like, "Oh my gosh, am I really gonna try to do this? Is that a big mistake?"
[00:12:35] and what I have learned, too, much like Joan, is you figure it out as you go, or you can always ask the questions. And I think asking the questions is one of the best pieces of advice that anybody can give you, because no matter where you are on the journey of your career, continuing to ask people about how they do what they do, if they are somewhere that you think you might like to be.
[00:12:55] Maybe you find out you don't, but if they do, that's part of the secret sauce. And that also makes me think of my ne- my next guest, Jeff Francoeur, a star baseball player. Was with the Atlanta Braves and other teams for so long. He has so many accolades to his name. Jeff is someone I've known for a long time.
[00:13:13] He is now a broadcaster covering baseball for multiple networks, but he also has a platform called Pure Athlete, and the focus that he and his teammates have there is really bringing the conversation of youth sports to the forefront, which is important. And he loves the idea of figuring it out as we go, not only stopping with us, but really showing up in how we support others, and specifically in helping kids, youths in sports, really become the best teammates that they can.
[00:13:41] And that also has to do with starting with the coaching, right? So he talks to adults about these messages, along with his team, just about people's stories and what we need to know,w and what things we can apply. Once we figure things out, we can use that knowledge to really enrich others, like when we coach youth sports.
[00:14:01] So I thought this conversation was fascinating about his experience and what he thinks our kids really need. From your perspective, what is the thing no one tells you that you have learned from your journey?
[00:14:15] Jeff: Man, I mean, there's so many different ways you could go, but I think the thing no one tells you, right, is that, like, kids just, they wanna have fun.
[00:14:23] They wanna be a part of the team. And I think one thing coaches don't do a great job of is making every kid feel valued. Like, you know, I coach my 12-year-old girls' softball team. I could ask them... So I did this with my daughter before last year. I gave her a pen, and I got a pen, and I was like, "You write the batting order for our 11 girls that you would do, and I'm gonna do it for what I wanna do as a coach."
[00:14:47] And we were one girl off, the six and seven holes switching. And so my point is, these kids are smart. They know who's the best. They know who's the most talented. They see it. And not every kid's gonna have that ability, but how can coaches, how can parents make their kid feel valued? Where I might not be the home run hitter on the team, right?
[00:15:07] I might not shoot... You know, it's like in the NBA. I might not score 35 points, but I can be the best defensive player in the league and make millions of dollars. I can shut down someone. So I think the thing no one tells you is kids wanna feel valued. They all do not wanna be the best. They wanna know they're on a team and feel valued.
[00:15:24] Lindsay: And what age range do you think that's really important? And it might be big. I don't know. I haven't asked you that question.
[00:15:31] Jeff: So I categorize in Pure Athlete three different stages. Like kindergarten through fifth grade, where, man, I think it's all about development, kids learning how to play, learning what, you know, a force play is, learning what a two, three zone defense is.
[00:15:47] Teaching nothing but the game. Yes, you want them to compete. You want them to feel that energy and that edge to try to win, but winning does not mean everything. I say you get to middle school, sixth through eighth grade, you have to start deciding, like, "Do I wanna do this in high school," right? 'Cause if you do, you're gonna have to put work in it.
[00:16:03] Yeah. You know?
[00:16:04] Lindsay: Yeah.
[00:16:04] Jeff: You are. Like I tell my daughter, we have a cage at home, hitting the net, and I'm like, "You have to go down there and put a ball on the tee. You have to go down there and do your footwork drills. If not, in the next few years, these girls are gonna pass you by." And then I think at the high school level, then it's like all in, right?
[00:16:22] Like, if you're a sophomore or junior, and you know you can play in college, like, go for it, man. I implore parents, go for it then. If that means you have to go to Colorado for four days for a camp, then do it. But these kids now, I don't know how much you know, like they're traveling to Colorado from DC with a nine-year travel baseball team, and I'm like, "What are we doing?"
[00:16:44] Lindsay: I, yeah, I think it's scary. First of all, you said 80, 80, you think 80 percent's normal. That is really generous, and I think that's wonderful. Like no, I'm serious.
[00:16:56] Jeff: I'm also an optimist. I am. Like that's…
[00:16:58] Lindsay: And that, no, that is important and wonderful, and I don't mean that badly. I just, yeah, so a couple things.
[00:17:04] I think that, having a middle schooler, I love hearing that breakdown of ages because you're exactly right. It's like what we've started to see is whether it's baseball or basketball, and basketball for us has been interesting because you start to realize that as kids are really getting into maybe more of what they like at that age.
[00:17:24] if that's when you agree that it happens, and you're like, "Oh, they really wanna make a travel team." Yeah. And then, you know, if you don't make that travel team, and then the reality kinda sets in, at least for us realizing like, oh, if this is really what a child loves, and if they're not making that now, those spots are so much fewer and far between- Yeah.
[00:17:42] in baseball. So right. So then it's like your point, the realization that like, okay, you need whatever it is, the training or maybe the outside help, and certainly the practice all the time. But I think that is really interesting, and do you think that at what age do you think it's important to consider that sort of outside training?
[00:18:05] Or is there a time that you would say, "Don't do it until..."
[00:18:07] Jeff: Well, I have all these parents that are like, "My kid gets a hitting lesson at nine years old," or like there's a nine-year-old kid who is doing QB lessons twice a week, and I'm like, I just don't. Personally, I've asked my dad this, 'cause I was a great athlete.
[00:18:20] Like I, I was. I'm not bragging, but I was the best on every team I played with, the best in the area. And my dad, he said, "When you were 9 and 10, you didn't understand the dynamics of what was really going on, right?" Like you didn't. Even my daughter, we totally redid her swing this year because she's finally, she's 5'5".
[00:18:39] You know, she's got some size on her now. She's going through puberty, so I'm like, she understands hitting now. She understands her body, what she can do. I don't think that at nine years old, kids can. I think it's parents, take your kid to the cages. You know, like your son, go out and shoot baskets for an hour.
[00:18:57] Like I you can't be with them at all times. You're working. Your husband's working. Like you're gonna be there, you're gonna do as much as you can, but they have to take accountability when they hit middle school, to me, where it's like you have to put the work in besides. Like I tell my daughter,
[00:19:11] we do a fielding lesson a week, and I'm like, "I will pay for that. I'll drive you." I drive her in traffic in LA, and I do this, but I'm like, "I also need to see the next day or the following day you in the backyard doing some of these drills that they're teaching you. And if you do that, I will continue to take you, and let's do this as long as your heart desires.
[00:19:31] But if you think you're only gonna do that one time a week for one hour, you're not gonna... You're gonna be left behind."
[00:19:38] Lindsay: Jeff Francoeur, I mean, there were so many valuable insights and so many things that he talked about in terms of, you know, being supportive parents that made me think about myself on the sidelines.
[00:19:48] Like, not just in work, but in life as a parent, just, like, some of the things that I've said. And it really has made me think about what I say, leaving my son's basketball game now, or my daughter, or if she has a competition, or if she's playing hoops. It's like, what do we say to them to encourage, but beyond everything, to make them feel valued?
[00:20:08] And feeling valued is something that this next guest, Vernon Davis, played for a long time in the NFL as a star tight end. Vernon is someone I've known for a while. I've covered him on several different teams. And Vernon was super open in this conversation because, also, sidebar, he's now an actor and he's doing a bunch of different things.
[00:20:31] So it's pretty cool to see how he has, like, filled his time since retirement and the different, really cool, creative things that he's doing. But Vernon, you know, reminded me about the importance of being valued, and also, like, what he went on to share was about how you don't think that your book can be closed.
[00:20:49] And when he was making it into the league, feeling that there was all of this pressure that he wanted to make it for his family, but how everybody assumes that it's gonna be this perfect ending, and it isn't always, and what that means for a player, what that means for a man. And I thought that was really interesting to hear and think about in the context of also just coming off of Jeff and thinking about it from a child's standpoint, an adolescent growing up, playing a sport, into someone like him, who goes on to make it for an NFL team.
[00:21:21] Gosh, when you think back just, you know, to your journey and your career that I know is very much still going on now in different ways, what is a thing that no one tells you that you've experienced that you think is valuable?
[00:21:35] Vernon: Yeah, a lot of people don't tell you'll make it to the NFL and lose everything.
[00:21:38] You can make it to the NFL and lose everything. They don't tell you that. They, when you see the picture that's painted of a guy making it to the NFL, you're like, "Oh, he made it. His whole life changed. He changes the, his, he changes the trajectory of his family's, Mm-hmm ... he's writing this book that will, that won't close," right?
[00:21:57] But what exactly is that? Is that valid? Is that true? How true is that? Well, it's not really true because you can make it to the NFL and lose all the money that you have. You can make it to the NFL, and put yourself in a situation that puts you in jail for the rest of your life.
[00:22:18] You can... I mean, anything can happen. I mean, like, it can happen, but they don't, we don't, they don't tell you that.
[00:22:29] Lindsay: So, how have you experienced that?
[00:22:32] Vernon: Well, I experienced that early on. I mean, I remember when I was, when I first made it to the NFL and, you know, I didn't, of course,e I didn't know too much about my finances.
[00:22:42] I didn't know- Yeah, I didn't have that growing up. Li Ke,e no one really taught me that. So one day I woke up, I'm headed to practice, and my financial advisor calls me. He's like, "Hey Vernon, you do know that you have X amount of dollars in the bank, right?" I was like, "Oh, really?" You know, I wasn't paying attention- I wasn't tracking that.
[00:23:00] You know, I still had some money, but it wasn't what I, what the money that I accumulated, right? I was losing it all from spending it on flights, to having parties, to buying things for other people, right? Yeah. And not
[00:23:17] Lindsay: Just- Like helping to take care of other people.
[00:23:20] Vernon: Exactly. Not watching my finances.
[00:23:21] So that was the moment for me where I said, "Look, I have to really educate myself on what I have going on." Right? If you don't educate yourself, then how are you gonna be able to take care of it? So what I did was I started to wake up and develop a process of being able to look at my accounts, right, the different accounts that I had.
[00:23:40] Also started asking questions. I started, like, seeking people in my neighborhood and taking them out for lunch. Like, I had a guy who had restaurants in my community, so I started taking him to lunch. I had a guy who was big into real estate, so I started taking him to lunch. And then all of a sudden I said, "You know what?
[00:23:57] Let me hire a business attorney to help me." Right? 'Cause if you have an attorney, if you have a business attorney, they know everything. They know how to structure things, right? Yeah. So if they know, if they're the ones that are structuring these agreements, then I can learn a lot from them.
[00:24:15] So I did. I hired a business attorney, paid him $10,000 a month for a year, then let him go.
[00:24:21] Lindsay: Really? And what did they do for you? Like, how did they, what kind of structure did they help you implement?
[00:24:26] Vernon: Oh, he came in, this, Eric, he came in and he d- he handled every deal that I had from endorsement to, like, whether I was buying real estate.
[00:24:34] He just kind of guided me through all of the different things that I had going on. And, I was able to see and sign every deal that, you know, we had going on. And at the time, I was with Levi's. I was with, I had, I did something with Sports Illustrated. I was just all, you know, I was all over the place doing a lot of different things, and he was there to guide me.
[00:24:58] Lindsay: And he was your agent at all, or no, separate from your agent?
[00:25:01] Vernon: No. No, he was separate from my agent. It was all business and endorsements. We just handled those documents together.
[00:25:08] Lindsay: Wow, that's cool. That's all. I love that's kinda what you did. It's funny because that seems like a common thread, too, a little bit.
[00:25:15] You reminded me a lot of the Olympics. Like, I just got done covering the Olympics, and I know you're like, you're a big curling fan, right? You like curling.
[00:25:22] Vernon: I love curling. I love it. It's fun.
[00:25:24] Lindsay: Yeah. It's hard, right? But I know. I think that's really cool. But something that I feel like a lot of the athletes that would be the analysts that would work with us would talk about is just, one in particular was like, you know, she played women's hockey, and it's like, "I didn't see anyone like me doing what I was doing."
[00:25:42] She played with the boys. But just the fact that you don't maybe see the path in front of you, but you just have this sort of belief and this tenacity to just move forward and ask the questions and, like, go for the thing and figure it out, right? And I j- I don't know. Yeah. I just think there's so much interest there, in that.
[00:26:04] Vernon: Yeah. I know. I feel like imposs- nothing is impossible. I mean, you can do anything if you put your mind to it.
[00:26:10] Lindsay: So Vernon Davis was sharing the concept of sometimes you can make it, like really make it, and then you can lose everything. And hearing him say that, honestly, really hit me because I was like, "Here's a man that if I looked at him when he was just in the league and several years after that, I would think is one of the stars," you know?
[00:26:32] So it just goes to show, like you never know what someone's thinking, and we are all wired the same. But one thing I guess, as I say that, that is different is just making it and then what you do, you know? What is your level of making it? Is it succeeding in exactly what you've set out to do, or is it something else?
[00:26:51] And that kind of leads me into my next guest, who is Ani DiFranco, the singer-songwriter, whom I listened to so much in high school and college. folk singer, indie rock. Like, she has such a following that what I found is her conversation was another live conversation we had at the library, and I'm not kidding, the audience that came to see her talk, it.
[00:27:18] Probably two minutes in, I realized sitting on stage with her, I'm like, "Oh, this feels like a sleepover." Like, these people are so excited to hear what she has to say. They are so in awe of her. It felt really different from anything that I've done before because that audience made it feel like this warm cocoon of happiness that we're all feeling seen and touched by what she was saying.
[00:27:42] So this clip that we're sharing is one of the pieces of our conversation that I'm not making up, I think about this all the time. Because you just heard Vernon talk about making it. Ani talks about making it-, and sort of takes it in this direction that I thought was really fascinating about what her measuring stick was, success, why it was success, and what made it that.
[00:28:08] And it's one moment that she painted so clearly, being the artist that she is, and I can't wait for you to hear this. So who did you have in your corner that was giving you the confidence to do that and create your own label? And were they giving you the type of confidence that convinced you that it was going to work?
[00:28:34] 'Cause that's bold.
[00:28:36] Ani: Yeah, what I had was that girl crying into her beer. That's who I had. And I think I was... No, but for real, I think I was blessed. One of my biggest graces, I think, that has carried me is that it thrilled me. In the Essex Street Pub with five people in the room, three of them listening, if I was lucky-
[00:29:08] making that connection thrilled me. And I wasn't in this game, this trap that we fall into thinking, "If I just get to the next level, I will be happy, I will be fulfilled." And I've been asked so many times over the decades, like, "How do I get to the next level?" Like, when... Here we are. This is the level.
[00:29:35] This is it. And I and just, but I, I didn't have to think that, or I didn't have to try to get there. I felt it. I felt it. I felt really thrilled, despite not being a success by anyone's measure. If I connected with somebody, that was like the goal, and it started happening immediately, so immediately, I was a success as far as I was concerned.
[00:30:10] Lindsay: How... I mean, that's so incredible. H- How do you get to that point for people who aren't there? Because you, you had it, that... And you're right, what you're describing is the one person that you're feeling the connection with, and you know in your soul that is what maybe you were meant to do or whatever that translates to you.
[00:30:38] So how do other people get that? Like, how do you describe that? And I know it's part of- Yeah ... what you share in the book.
[00:30:46] Ani: Yeah, right. Yeah, just being in the moment. I guess you just have to let go of a lot of ideas that you grew up with. You have to put down your culture in a lot of ways, that's telling you're supposed to get anywhere.
[00:31:13] You know, will you share your story of your grandma when- right before she passed?
[00:31:19] Lindsay: Yes. This is deep. No, so we were upstairs, and I was saying there's a part where Ani's talking about spirituality and the connection with animals. Also, my favorite animal, sidebar, is a donkey, and there are just many reasons, but I love them, and my husband likes, "Please stop talking."
[00:31:44] I recently did this donkey meditation that was at this place where you can go. Anyway, I went into the room- Yes ... up there where they had me sitting, and on the wall there's a picture of a donkey. Yeah. And I was like, they don't, they didn't know. They don't know. But the story about my grandma is that when my grandmother passed, which was two years ago, a few months before we had been talking, I was in conversation with my grandma and my mom, and we were sitting around her kitchen table.
[00:32:14] And my mom was making the point, my mom's the oldest of he, two sisters, and my mom said, "Mom," to my grandma, "It seems like you've gotten so much more relaxed and calm." And she was making the point that my grandmother used to get worked up and anxious about things that weren't going the way she wanted.
[00:32:33] and my grandma said, super calm, "You know what I've started doing? I've started putting myself with the animals." And my mom and I looked at each other like, "What is she talking about?" And she said, which is funny because she had this family of deer too, I didn't tell you this, and they would come to her yard, and one of them had a broken leg.
[00:32:53] And we would see that deer every, like, a few months when we were there, and it was always this sort of random touchstone. But my grandma went on to say, "I have started putting myself with the animals and envisioning myself with, you know, the different rabbits or whatever they were in the forest." And it sounded so bizarre, but really it was...
[00:33:15] I mean, she was dead serious, and it was a peace that she was describing, you know?
[00:33:21] Ani: Incredibly wise. Yeah. I, yeah, it's funny, us humans, you know, this, like, mythical state of enlightenment that we dream of and that a few, you know, gurus in India have achieved over thousands of hours of meditation, every other animal is in that state, right now and always.
[00:33:51] And we humans think we are so special for being able to destroy our host planet. For being able to transform ourselves from mammal to parasite. You know, like... So yeah, and this human culture that teaches you need to get there, when really you need to get back there.
[00:34:16] Lindsay: The girl in the bar. So here's what that taught me.
[00:34:20] and I am, beyond everything we've heard here, maybe I'm most grateful to have heard that piece of that conversation, and to have been able to share it with all of you. Because I think it just really shares that when we're feeling that there is something that we're being called to do, or when there is something that makes us feel so excited that maybe it's a natural talent, maybe it's not, and it's just something that makes us feel happy, as long as the purpose is, clear and true, it doesn't have to be some huge thunderbolt of a moment of someone who is supposed to tell us that we're doing the right thing says that.
[00:34:56] It can literally, and maybe more importantly, be that moment of just subtle, honest human connection. That's what that girl crying in the bar meant to her, and ever since then, I've just thought, "You know, if you're doing something and if you reach a person, maybe that's really enough," right? Anyway, deep thoughts with Lindsay Czarniak.
[00:35:16] Oh my goodness, we have learned so much from all of our guests who have joined us this season for Things No One Tells You. We have laughed, we have cried, we have been inspired, certainly by the things no one tells you that all of our guests have shared, and the time that they've taken to have these conversations has been real and meaningful to all of us.
[00:35:34] We have really big things coming for you in season three, which will launch this summer. We will keep you posted. So to do that, to stay along with us, be sure to follow, subscribe, rate, and share an episode with a friend, and keep up with the latest from the team and me right here on TNOTY. We appreciate you, we love that you're a part of this community, and we can't wait to see you right back here.
