Building a Career Without Compromising Your Voice with Ani DiFranco: Ep 42
Highlights from the episode:
How creating music started as a way to find peace
Learning to trust your instincts before the outside world catches up
Why independence can feel both grounding and hard
The power of connection and vulnerability
Podcast show notes:
If you had told me as a student at James Madison University that one day, decades later, I'd be waiting to go onstage for a conversation with Ani DiFranco, I would've NEVER believed you.
Her songs were on repeat on our playlist. Somehow, as my roommates and I danced to her music in our dorm or as I listened through my headphones making my way across campus, I felt like her lyrics were intended specifically for me. Turns out that’s exactly how all of her fans have felt for decades. That ability to connect through vulnerability is what has always made Ani DiFranco so special as an artist.
This live conversation with Ani started as a look at her journey and new book, The Spirit of Ani, but it quickly turned into an impromptu talk about her views on life after death, her longstanding fight against the patriarchy, and yes, even donkeys. The powerful connection within the room was palpable from the moment she took her shoes off to sit cross legged at the start of our conversation. It felt like we were at a sleepover with 150 plus of our closest friends listening in and that vibe was certainly because of her ability to be so present in the moment.
Many thanks to the Westport Library and Verso Studios for creating the environment to have such a memorable evening and for hosting this conversation as part of VersoFest 2026.
We spend so much time thinking about where we’re going. We rarely stop to ask if we’re already where we need to be. Ani DiFranco has spent decades doing exactly that, choosing presence over pressure, connection over convention.
Ani reflects on building a career rooted in independence, turning down the traditional music industry, and learning to trust her instincts from a young age.
What I loved most is how honest she is about the process. The exhaustion, the doubts, and the realization that fulfillment isn’t waiting somewhere ahead, it’s in the moment you’re in.
What You’ll Discover
How vulnerability became Ani’s superpower (00:09:56)
Being on her own at 15 and finding her path (00:22:05)
Turning down record labels and choosing independence (00:25:29)
What success meant early in her career (00:30:36)
The moment Ani realized music connected people (00:31:03)
Why presence is everything (00:32:45)
This conversation is about more than music. It’s about identity, intuition, and the courage to choose your own way, even when it doesn’t look like anyone else’s.
If you’re enjoying these conversations, don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review, and share this episode with a friend. It helps us keep bringing these conversations to you.
This live event interview was recorded at Verso Studios in the Westport Library as part of VersoFest 2026.
Connect with Ani DiFranco
Follow Ani DiFranco on Instagramhttps://www.instagram.com/anidifranco/
Check out Ani DiFranco’s label Righteous Babe Recordshttps://www.righteousbabe.com/
Discover Ani DiFranco’s last book The Spirit of Ani: Reflections on Spirituality, Feminism, Music, and Freedom https://www.akashicbooks.com/catalog/the-spirit-of-ani-reflections-on-spirituality-feminism-music-and-freedom/
Be sure to subscribe to Things No One Tells You—Lindsay’s podcast all about the real, unfiltered conversations we don’t always have but should. From big names to everyday voices, each episode dives into the moments that shape us. Listen wherever you get your podcasts!
Follow along with Lindsay below!
Full Transcript
[00:00:00] Ani: And I wasn't in this game, this trap that we fall into thinking if I just get to the next level, I will be happy, I will be fulfilled. And I've been asked so many times over the decades, like, how do I get to the next level? Like, when here we are, this is the level, this is it. And I just feel, but I didn't have to think that, or I didn't have to try to get there.
[00:00:32] I felt it. I felt it. I felt really thrilled, despite not being a success by anyone's measure. If I connected with somebody who was like the goal. And it started happening immediately. So immediately, I was a success as far as I was concerned.
[00:00:56] Lindsay: Hey there, everybody, and welcome to this episode of The Things No One Tells You Podcast. Alright, so this one, I am still pinching myself that this was a conversation that actually happened, and in some ways, it actually still feels like it never happened. This is my episode with Artist Ani DiFranco. Ani is someone whose music I listened to on repeat, especially in college.
[00:01:21] her songs ‘Untouchable Face’, ‘Both Hands’, and ‘32 Flavors’. They were like anthems of my time at James Madison University. I don't know why, but here's the deal. The library in my town, Westport Library. They get some just insanely talented people to come and speak at the library to perform. I mean, Wyclef Jean just performed there as part of their Brow Fest.
[00:01:46] Ani DiFranco came to talk about her new book, which is called The Spirit of Ani, and I had the opportunity to interview her and have this conversation about the book. And I was so excited about that opportunity when I realized that I was gonna be able to do it, because she is someone who, beyond just being an amazing singer songwriter, all the things, she has this connective tissue that is, everyone who is a fan of her music seems to have felt like they were touched in the same way.
[00:02:18] And to be able to talk to her about her songs, about her life, I was so excited. I was also very nervous because I thought that at the end of the day. I just wanted to bring forth all these things in this connection as I could. And the reality was, there was so much to talk about and to ask her. Our focus was really on this book, which is paying attention to her spirituality and her journey in terms of how she views it.
[00:02:49] The world views the world through that lens. So I'm not gonna lie, and be part of this conversation. We were talking about deep metaphysics, and there are parts that I swear I don't really remember because we were just so in the moment, and there were things I shared on that stage that I am still shocked that I did.
[00:03:11] So anyway, all I know is that Ani DiFranco came to connect with every single person in that audience. And this is a conversation about her journey, about why she believes the thing no one tells you is really the importance of connection and being present, and how she applies that in her life. So I hope you love this conversation.
[00:03:37] The Westport Library, through Verso Fest and the Verso Studios, you know, worked with us so that we could bring you this conversation that happened live as part of their Verso Fest. So. I hope you love this as much as I loved having it.
[00:03:52] Crystal: Tonight, we gather in community inside the walls of this dynamic library to spend time with Ani DiFranco and offer gratitude for the gifts she has given us over a prolific multi-decade career, gifts that include over 20 albums, countless artistic and charitable collaborations, several books, and even a stint on Broadway as Persephone in Hades Town.
[00:04:23] But perhaps the greatest gift Ani has given us, especially women, queer folk, and those whose voices have been historically marginalized by mainstream culture, is permission to just be in her music, to sit with that feeling, that rush of recognition that is somehow all at once, affirming, healing, joyful, little bit cheeky, empowering, and cathartic.
[00:04:51] Please join me in welcoming to the stage Lindsay Czarniak and Ani DiFranco.
[00:05:21] Lindsay: You sat down too fast. That's for you.
[00:05:23] Ani: Oh. Oh no. I'm, I just, I gotta take a seat. This is too beautiful. What a beautiful spot. What a beautiful group. Your introduction made me cry.
[00:05:34] Lindsay: Well, welcome. And I was thinking, you know, towards the end of your book, you talk about how when you go on stage, you say what?
[00:05:43] You get yourself in the mindset, and you drop the veil. You say drop the ego. Really just be, and I really think that's what this is.
[00:05:52] Ani: Yeah. Oh my God, I'm a crier. What's, no, it's, Everybody got tissues. Okay.
[00:05:58] Lindsay: It's the connection, you know. It is what your music is, and for those of us in this room who are very aware of your music, it's what people feel collectively when they listen to it.
[00:06:12] It's so powerful. So welcome and thank you for being here.
[00:06:16] Ani: Thank you, Lindsay. It's great to be here. Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get comfortable.
[00:06:21] Lindsay: You're taking your shoes off. Oh, I love it. It's that kind of talk.
[00:06:24] Ani: Okay. You know that baby
[00:06:27] Lindsay: So on that topic, and I did just get my toes.
[00:06:31] Ani: Maybe we'll trade shoes by the end of the night.
[00:06:33] Lindsay: I'm like, I would do that. That's awesome. Thank you. Oh, this feels so much better. What does it mean to you to have that kind of reaction and to know that it comes from a place of being able to reach so many people at their core?
[00:06:51] Ani: Well, yeah, I've gotten to the place in my life. I am grateful to say that it means everything.
[00:07:01] You know, I think there were decades past when it was overwhelming, and I felt depleted, you know? By the whole thing. But I'm so well past that now. I mean, I was in, I was hanging out in New York last week doing some work, and I passed a woman on the street one afternoon walking down the avenue, and she just said, I love you.
[00:07:29] And I cried all the way back to my hotel, 'cause it means that much. And I'm finally at a place where I'm ready to receive it and reciprocate and just feel that back, feel so grateful back for that connection.
[00:07:48] Lindsay: Oh, we were standing backstage. Sorry, my Pilates is not working that well right now.
[00:07:54] Ani: Oh yeah.
[00:07:55] Lindsay: And I said to Ani when Carrie was describing her, you know, going through the accolades and things, and was talking about how you made everybody feel the way that they feel, and through. The pivotal years of their lives. I mean, that's the thing.
[00:08:12] You know what's so funny? Friends of mine in this town, whom I did not know when I started listening to your music, I'm on a text chain, and one of my friends said," Girls, I took a train from Paris to Germany in the early nineties all by myself to see Ani. She was in high school, I think. Oh, I love that. And there's, so the list, it went on and on.
[00:08:34] And it just, you realize how, you know, what you were singing about, writing about is just such a connector. And when I asked you backstage, I said, when did you realize that you had that power? And you said,
[00:08:49] Ani: Right away. I mean, I mean in a, you know, in my little way in, you know, in a little bar in Buffalo, that's just, I mean, maybe I'm, making it up, but my memory is that the minute that I open my mouth and just shared my truth, there was always somebody, there was somebody in the room, there was some chick, like two beers in that would just start crying and then there was hugging to do and there was a like, you know, it just that, that's been my experience that the minute you just show up as your authentic self, somebody else does that back.
[00:09:37] Lindsay: Yeah. Yes. What do you think ? It is about your writing and your music. That reaches people that way. What is it, by your definition?
[00:09:56] Ani: Well, I was gonna say, I don't know, and I don't need to know, but I think maybe, I do know, actually, it just took me a second in my little brain. The word vulnerability has come up so much over the decades, and I don't think I really understood that until recently. That word that kept coming back to me, thank you for your, I was like, what does that even mean? I don't, and now I get it. Now I get it. Do we have Brene’ Brown fans? Yeah, she's a badass and just, yeah.
[00:10:38] Right. The strength that it takes to be vulnerable to do an action without knowing the result.
[00:10:47] Lindsay: She wrote the book, Daring Greatly. For those of you that I know, everyone here probably knows her, but just in case, Melvin, I think you know her. That's my husband, by the way.
[00:10:57] Ani: Hey.
[00:10:59] Lindsay: But so this book and this The Spirit of Ani, why, I mean, first of all, there are so many, I think different, themes of course, but different lessons to take from this, which is really you sharing.
[00:11:18] Your blueprint for the way that you look at things. Right. How would you describe this? Why did this book show up now?
[00:11:26] Ani: Well, it's showing up now because it took two years to get it from the conversation that it centers around to this Little package. So it's funny for you to talk about the now 'cause this, I feel I can feel the distance between what I've already put between myself and this ani that's talking in this book.
[00:11:54] 'Cause life just keeps going. And yeah. A couple of years ago, Lauren. Just called me up.
[00:12:05] Lindsay: Lauren Coyle Rosen,
[00:12:06] Ani: Yeah.
[00:12:07] Lindsay: Who co-wrote.
[00:12:07] Ani: Like my co-author. She's an academic, a very witchy academic and writer of books. Very thoughtful person. And she had read my memoir, and there was, I guess, she was curious about some of the spiritual stuff that came up in that book, and she wanted to explore more.
[00:12:30] So that was her proposition. And I think she imagined that we would have a series of conversations and then she would write a book. And instead, you know, I got involved, and I didn't, you know, I never, I didn't leave the guests that wouldn't leave, so, so we rose, sort of put it together, I mean, we worked on it together, and we kept it conversational. It was kind of a, it was hard because the publishers, we were sort of shopping the book around, and publishers were like, and they were trying to encourage us to just make it, you know, pontificating on the page. And we felt that it was right to keep it as a conversation because so much of what we were talking about was that existence is a conversation that's.
[00:13:28] Why we embody these supposedly separate forms is to be in relationship with each other. That's, so we just keep it as a relationship, as a back-and-forth feel. Right. So we kind of had to fight for that one. But Akashic Books, this really sweet, indie book publisher, said," Sure, let's do this.
[00:13:54] So yeah. So we just, we had these conversations, and then we collaborated, sort of editing them down to what you have. Yeah.
[00:14:03] Lindsay: What were you most excited about with this book and the content in there that you guys get into?
[00:14:10] Ani: I don't know. I really don't sort of spend time reflecting on my own. Voice and what comes outta my face, you know?
[00:14:23] Really, I mean, I, yeah, really, for me, it is all about just being in the moment. So I was in the moment, in the process of this book, and then the moment that's done, I'm just off. I'm off and running.
[00:14:38] Lindsay: Have you always been that way?
[00:14:39] Ani: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's been useful for me.
[00:14:45] Lindsay: Wait, so I have questions. Okay. So yeah, I know that, I know you picked up a guitar for the first time when you were nine, right?
[00:14:54] Ani: This chair doesn't want me to face you.
[00:14:56] Lindsay: I know, but it kind of feels good. It's like we're in our buffer cars. We're ready to take off. When you were nine, I was talking to my daughter because I was making her listen to some of your albums the past week, and she actually fell in love with the song, both hands.
[00:15:13] Oh. Which I love. And she can sing all things, and she was like, I don't exactly know what it means. I was like, well that might actually, at this point.
[00:15:21] Ani: That's fair.
[00:15:22] Lindsay: Be fair.
[00:15:23] Ani: That's probably good.
[00:15:24] Lindsay: But you were nine, you picked up a guitar and like, what, was it at that point that drew you to the music?
[00:15:31] What was your hope?
[00:15:34] Ani: I guess I didn't really have hopes or aspirations per se for an outcome. What I had was trouble in my little 9-year-old body, and I wanted to get it out. I used to dance a lot. I thought maybe I would be a dancer. I used to paint and draw all the time, and then I started singing and playing guitar.
[00:16:00] It was just, I think it was just more of me trying to find homeostasis, you know? To just find peace, I was in a house that was full of bad vibes, and making art instantly felt like medicine. So really it was just about a healing process and, you know, still is. So what happened next? Well, I met this guy named Michael.
[00:16:38] He was 33 at the time. I think I was nine.
[00:16:43] Lindsay: Michael Meldrum.
[00:16:44] Ani: Michael Meldrum. Yes. Yes. Thank you. He was kind of the unofficial mayor of Buffalo, New York, you know, everybody knew him. He had been like, you know, he was the kind of guy that his address was his girlfriend of the moment's address, you know, and but he was a, though he was kind of an, sort of a hobo.
[00:17:17] He was also brilliant. He was a reader. He was a thinker. He was a songwriter. Oh, there he is. There's Michael. Yeah. Yeah. And, there we are in this gig. He got me involved in that, which was my 11th birthday. Wow. We played the " Save the Whales and Dolphins benefit. Yeah, we saved them too. They still exist. But, yeah, Michael, I met him at this guitar shop where my parents humored me and bought me a guitar.
[00:17:52] I asked for one when I was nine, and there he was. And I remember he used to teach lessons at this guitar shop, and I took lessons, not from him per se, but the lesson I was taking, and the lesson he was teaching were at the same time. So he and I would sit in the chairs in the little sort of hallway-shaped guitar shop on Allen Street in Allentown, in Buffalo.
[00:18:17] And we just. Started talking to each other, and it was on. He was, we were best friends, we were an odd couple, but for sure he would spring me, you know, so there, he was a songwriter as well, among his many talents and activities. And so I started writing songs, 'cause you know, my pal was doing it, it seemed like the thing you do, like really young.
[00:18:48] So he would come to spring me from high school at least.
[00:18:53] Lindsay: How?
[00:18:54] Ani: and I would go do, he would be an artist in residence at other public schools in Buffalo. So he would come get me outta school, and I would go do that with him. I did everything with him, played in bars, busted on the street. He took me everywhere.
[00:19:12] Lindsay: What was that like?
[00:19:14] Ani: I mean, it was the seventies, so there was a 9-year-old in the bar. You know, some dude who's not my parent is coming and getting me outta school. Sure. You know, it was, there was freedom, and we exploited it. Yeah.
[00:19:37] Lindsay: And so from that, how much of that timeframe and experience did you take into your music moving forward?
[00:19:49] Ani: So much. I mean, Michael was my first mentor. He showed me the template of my job, you know, he showed me how it's done. He ran the open mic at Niche Cheese Bar, and then by the time I was 1,5 I ran the open mic. Wow. At Niche Cheese Bar and Yeah, really, a mentor, not just in being a troubadour, but in being somebody on a sort of spiritual and intellectual quest, somebody who's curious and free.
[00:20:31] Lindsay: What do you feel like types of things were you discovering spiritually even at that point?
[00:20:40] What were you thinking about? You know, what was the young,
[00:20:43] Ani: What was it? Oh, goddess forbid. I don't know those early songs. I'm sure they're, oh, see, no, but here's the thing. Here's the thing, and I shouldn't even say this, but you don't know the first, we're all right here.
[00:20:59] First tape. You don't know. The first, tape. Before the first tape, there was the first tape.
[00:21:08] But you know, I think I made a hundred copies and whatever. I was just, you know, finding my voice, you know, person. And, but yeah, on the first tape, there are all those songs about social issues, you know, I mean. Right. So how old was I? You know, I don't know. A teenager and, you know, I remember there was a song called aids, just called aids.
[00:21:37] I was talking about some stuff there, and you know, yeah. Just already kind of up in my fields.
[00:21:45] Lindsay: Yeah. What were the most important things to you at that time? What were the things that were most on your mind that you felt like you wanted to be singing about? Writing about?
[00:21:57] Ani: Yeah. Well, I was, well, on my way. I mean, I guess, no, I was years into being an emancipated minor.
[00:22:05] You know, I was on my own when I was 15, starting at 15. So a lot of what was on my mind was being a teenage girl alone in a man's world, holding down the open mic in a bar full of dudes drinking, you know, survival was on my mind. And we talk about it actually in this book, Lauren and I. It's funny, she caught me a couple of funny moments in this conversation.
[00:22:41] You know, she would bring up song lyrics, like, if he tries anything or something, you know, what, were the lyrics? She would quote these lyrics where I'm like, I'm, you know, all powerful, l WAS gonna tell you where to get off. I'm paraphrasing.
[00:22:55] Lindsay: Yeah.
[00:22:56] Ani: And like, how were you at that age? And I was like, please, she kept catching me in my lies, you know?
[00:23:08] But just over the course of the conversation, it came up a few times. Like, okay, so the reality is I was not that at all. I was really singing my spells. I was singing to myself that I am strong and I am capable, and I am not to be fucked with, you know.
[00:23:39] Lindsay: And I know you said the connection, you could tell right away that you were connecting, that what you were writing and singing about was resonating with the people who were hearing it. When did you realize that those messages were also just so impactful, and that was really getting through?
[00:24:03] Ani: Well, it's hard to, you know, even for myself to put myself back there. You know, for those of us that were around, you know, whatever, the eighties, I guess, is when I started opening my mouth and yeah. Singing, in a big way. And it was just so different. The women's voices were not so audible.
[00:24:39] It was; there was just so much more exclusion. Queer voices. Everyone was in the closet, you know, it was not that long ago, but it was so different. And I felt that, I felt how hidden so many were. And I did, you know, pissed me off, so that was, you know, it, which is not to say I was on some kind of political mission.
[00:25:16] I was on a visceral mission, you know?
[00:25:20] And, yeah, so that was just, I think, driving me from the beginning.
[00:25:29] Lindsay: When the record labels started reaching out, how did you handle that?
[00:25:37] Ani: I mean, I was an idealistic kid. I don't know, I had thoughts about other things other than feminism and queer liberation. I had thoughts about all sorts of things. And one of them was Capitalism. Boo. You know, boo. And so it just was apparent that, you know, it was a big music business. And, profit Motive was the thing, like any big business.
[00:26:15] And it just was apparent that the interests of those businesses and the interests of art and culture and people and human evolution were often contradictory, you know, in conflict. So I was suspicious. I was just suspicious, and I did not have a plan. You know, I had no plan. I had no, I was naive in many ways.
[00:26:48] Lindsay: I think that's great.
[00:26:50] Don't you think naivety looking back is like Sure. A blessing.
[00:26:54] Ani: Yeah. I think, I, if I'm hearing you, I agree that not knowing how it goes.
[00:27:02] Can be a blessing. Because often, how it goes sucks. So, but yeah, I think in the beginning I was really dealing with some very basic, the difference between attraction and aversion.
[00:27:23] And I showed up in these offices or at these lunches or at these, you know, kind of, we're gonna make you a star meetings and I I felt the aversion and I felt like I could, I've always felt like I could sort of see into the future at least of my own existence, and I could see that path and where it led.
[00:27:50] And it was not a happy Ani, it was not a fulfilled Ani.
[00:27:56] Lindsay: What was that like when you looked towards the future? What types of things in that scenario did you feel like you saw?
[00:28:06] Ani: I mean, you know, when I was young, I, and even say, okay, so fast forward a bunch of years, I've started Righteous Babe.
[00:28:16] I'm putting out my records independently. I've already started down this other path. But I'm still touring alone, driving myself everywhere, doing all the things, you know, selling the tapes outta the trunk of my car as the story goes. You know, like that was real in the beginning, and it was exhausting. And I exhausted myself pretty early on, and I needed help.
[00:28:42] and my manager at the time put it to me like, okay, if you wanna hire somebody to help you drive and maybe do a sound check, that doesn't involve electroshock therapy every day. You have to sell T-shirts. We gotta make a t-shirt.
[00:29:02] Ew, ew, No, of course I relented. I relented at some point.
[00:29:11] Lindsay: And why did you say ew? Like, why didn't,
[00:29:13] Ani: It just felt embarrassing. It felt embarrassing. Right. Even this name on the cover of this book, it feels embarrassing, but I'm at the age now where I've got to, I'm like, whatever. I just, it's just a name.
[00:29:29] It's just a face. I'm not gonna even get worked up, getting all that embarrassed feels great, picture, kind of self-involved. Thank you. Yeah. But somebody else came up with all of this, and I'm like, sure. I am over even worrying about that. But at the time, that girl. I looked into the music business, and I just felt mortified by the game.
[00:29:59] I would have needed to play in that scenario. It just felt so not me.
[00:30:07] Lindsay: And you wanted the same end game, though, right? I mean, to be able to do your music and to do that for a living. So who did you have in your corner that was giving you the confidence to do that and create your own label? And were they giving you the type of confidence that convinced you that it was going to work?
[00:30:33] 'Cause that's bold.
[00:30:36] Ani: Yeah. No, the one I had was that girl crying into her beer. That's who I had. And I think I was, no, but for real, I think I was blessed. One of my biggest graces, I think, that has carried me is that it thrilled me in the Essex Street Pub with five people in the room, three of them listening.
[00:31:03] If I were lucky, making that connection thrilled me, and I wasn't in this game, this trap that we fall into thinking if I just get to the next level, I will be happy, I will be fulfilled. And I've been asked so many times over the decades, like, how do I get to the next level? Likewise, when here we are, this is the level, this is it.
[00:31:36] And I just feel, but it, I didn't have to think that, or I didn't have to try to get there. I felt it. I felt it. I felt really thrilled, even though I was not a success by anyone's measure, if I connected with somebody who was like the goal, and it started happening immediately. So immediately, I was a success as far as I was concerned.
[00:32:10] Lindsay: How, I mean, that's so incredible. How do you get to that point for people who aren't there? Because you, you had it that, and you're right, what you're describing is the one person that you're feeling the connection with, and you know in your soul that is what maybe you were meant to do or whatever that.
[00:32:36] Translates to you. So how do other people get that? Like, how do you describe that? And I know it's part of Yeah. What you share in the book.
[00:32:45] Ani: Yeah. Right. Yeah, just being in the moment, I guess. You just have to let go of a lot of ideas that you grew up with. You have to put down your culture in a lot of ways.
[00:33:07] That's telling you' you're supposed to get anywhere. You know, will you share your story of your grandma right before she passed?
[00:33:19] Lindsay: Yes. This is deep. No. So we were upstairs, and I was saying there's a part where Ani is talking about spirituality and the connection with animals, also. My favorite animal is a donkey.
[00:33:36] And there are just many reasons, but I love them, and my husband likes them, please stop talking. I recently did this donkey meditation that was at this place where you can go. Anyway, I went into the room up there where they had me sitting, and on the wall, there's a picture of a donkey. Yeah. It's like they don't, they didn't know.
[00:33:57] They don't know. But the story about my grandma is that when my grandmother passed, which was two years ago, a few months before we had been talking, and I was in conversation with my grandma and my mom, and we were sitting around our kitchen table, and my mom was making the point. My mom's the oldest of her two sisters.
[00:34:20] My mom said, " Mom, to my grandma, it seems like you've gotten so much more relaxed and calm. And she was making the point that my grandmother used to get worked up and anxious about things that weren't going the way she wanted. And, my grandma said, super calm. You know what I've started doing? I've started putting myself with the animals, and my mom and I looked at each other like," What is she talking about?
[00:34:45] And she said, and which is funny because she had this family of deer or two, I didn't tell you this. And that would come to her yard, and one of them had a broken leg, and we would see that deer every few months when we were there. And it was always this sort of random touchstone. But my grandma went on to say, I have started putting myself with the animals and envisioning myself with, you know, the different rabbits or whatever they were in the forest.
[00:35:09] And it, it sounded so. Bizarre, but really it was. I mean, she was dead serious, and it was a piece that she was describing, you know,
[00:35:20] Ani: Incredibly wise. Yeah, I, yeah. It's funny, us humans, you know, this mythical state of enlightenment that we dream of and that a few, you know, gurus in India have achieved over thousands of hours of meditation.
[00:35:43] Every other animal is in that state right now, and always, and as humans think we are so special for being able to destroy our host planet for being able to transform ourselves from mammal to parasite. You know, like. So, yeah. And this human culture that teaches you, you need to get there when really you need to get back there.
[00:36:20] Lindsay: And when you talk about their enlightenment, describe that a little bit. Like, what is that state that you see that the animals are in?
[00:36:30] Ani: I mean, I'm not able, the way some are, to actually think to share. Well, that's not true. I know what my dogs think, and sometimes, and I know she knows my mind. In fact, if I'm sitting at the computer and she starts, she'll start whimpering.
[00:36:55] She starts getting really fidgety and starts whimpering, and then I realize, oh, I need to eat. And seriously, that is her. That is her way. She feels it. She knows everything that's happening to me. And, you know, scientists are only, well, they are only beginning the research that science has been doing on telepathy, for instance, thought sharing, which has been going on since the seventies.
[00:37:26] Only now are they starting to get anything other than excommunicated. You know, and thrown off the planet, and d Whatevered. But you know, your dog knows when you're coming home, not 'cause they can smell you 20 miles away when you make that turn, but because there's thought sharing happening between all other species, and it can be happening with us.
[00:38:01] All the time. And so for plants, and I am just an infant in this vast world of possibility, but it thrills me to no end to think that conversation is that friends and family are all around us in every living thing,g and that conversation and relationships are available to us. Were we to get back there within ourselves, get quiet enough to pick up the signal.
[00:38:41] So, yeah. Is that what we were talking about?
[00:38:45] Lindsay: I don't know if you would've told me. In the nineties, when I would be talking to you and talking about getting with the animals, I would've been like, " No.
[00:38:56] Ani: I just love that's what your grandma said.
[00:38:58] Lindsay: I do too. Yeah. And you know what's funny is I was at the same place where I was, it was, if any of you have been there, a couple of girlfriends went to just get away, and they had these events and or these activities that you signed up for.
[00:39:11] And one of them was the experience with the donkeys. And my friends were mortified that I did that. But I was like, come on. And my one friend came with me,e and I was like, see, but it, they have them in this ring, ng and you, just go, and you just are with them. And the thing about donkeys is, I'm so sorry.
[00:39:32] Horses are known as horses. I mean, everyone would expect a king to ride on a horse, but you know, they don't; they ride sometimes on donkeys, and anyway, they do this. So they have this therapy where you go, and the whole thing is you're sitting with them, and you are just waiting for them to come up to you, and they let you into their world.
[00:39:53] So that was mind-blowing.
[00:39:55] Ani: Don't get me started on past lives, 'cause now I wanna know the story of you and the donkeys, right? Don't you just wanna know? Yeah.
[00:40:05] Crystal: I'm so sorry.
[00:40:06] Lindsay: So anyway, but real quick, back to my grandma, that was, I just found that she was so calm and so deliberate in it. And she had also, and then shortly before she passed, she said, my mom asked her one day, you know, how are you feeling?
[00:40:20] And she said, I am so ready. And she said," Do you see the footprints there again? We were like, what? And she saw footprints on the side of her room. So that was a magical, awesome experience. But I think it's so incredible, and really, it is what you share about just that and getting, still getting to that part of who you are, and really what you're saying is, this is really all we need.
[00:40:47] And being vulnerable and communicating in the connection, your dad, I wanted to ask you just about how special he was and how much of an impact he was for you, because that's something too that was, something that I took from the book, and how you said that. Yeah. You have also had interactions with you.
[00:41:09] Ani: Yeah. Yeah. My dad passed when I was in my mid-thirties, and he, i.e., Oh sure. There he is. There we are. Yeah. We are really soul-bonded, my dad and I, and when he passed, I was not in the room. I was recording an album in LA, and I got the call from my brother. You know, Dad's not well.
[00:41:54] And, so I dropped the session with all the dudes in the studio and everything, and the pay for all the things. And I like, ugh, should I just finish the win and to the credit? I was, that's how young I was. It was a question in my mind, and the other people involved in the session said, " Go. So I flew home, and I lay with him for a few days as his body shut down.
[00:42:28] I lay in his bed in the home with him. But tonight it was time to go. Kicking you out, time. So I went home, and at about three in the morning, you know, I'm not much of a sleeper. and especially not at this moment, right? And at three in the morning, I was suddenly stricken because it got quite chilly that night.
[00:43:00] And I realized I left the window open in his room, and I started panicking that he's cold, he's gonna be cold. And I was thinking, I'll just, I'll drive there, I'll drive there, and I'll just talk and I'll, and then just an extraordinary
[00:43:26] transformation of my whole state of being. It was like a tidal wave of peace, bliss. Bliss, like a feeling I've not had before or since.
[00:43:44] And I heard a voice, maybe this is the closest I've come to actually hearing a spirit. I heard a voice say, " It's all perfect. There's nothing to do. Wow. And I went, and I lay down, and I had the deepest sleep. And I woke up to the phone and my brother saying Dad died at three in the morning last night. And it made sense in retrospect.
[00:44:15] So yeah, I'm all about death. I love me to death.
[00:44:22] Lindsay: What do you mean?
[00:44:26] Ani: Girl? It is not the end. Woo. This word is very destructive. This idea that we have, I mean, it is a loss for those who are left behind, and that is, that's the word, grief is the word that we need to contend with. Death is an adventure. Death is on to the next adventure. It never ends. And if you're like me, you fall asleep listening to near-death experience stories every night.
[00:45:13] Lindsay: That's what you do.
[00:45:13] Ani: That's what I do. That is what I do. I highly recommend it.
[00:45:18] Lindsay: I love this about you because it's how I shared that thing about my grandmother talking about the wall. Ever since then, it has made me just think about it, 'cause that made me feel more comfortable with her.
[00:45:30] Yeah. And knowing that,
[00:45:31] Ani: Oh.
[00:45:31] Lindsay: That was going to happen. I knew that she knew and felt good about where she was going.
[00:45:36] Ani: The other side is a podcast. it's, you can find it. On the other side, there's a lot of these outlets now where it's, there's no commentary, there's no whatever. There's just one story after another.
[00:45:52] First person of people who have died near-death experience is a sucky term 'cause it's a death experience. Some people die for three minutes, some people die for 40 minutes, and then come back to the same body. This has happened. This is where all of us are. All the religious ideas, you know, I've never been one for organized religion because of the patriarchy aspect, really?
[00:46:23] Yeah, but it's all based on real stuff, I think, which is why it's so powerful. But yeah, people who cross over everyone, I mean, they're all so unique, these stories. Fascinating. Like we are unique in life. We are unique forever living in all of our incarnations and in between embodiments, and we are all so unique, but there are so many commonalities as well.
[00:46:57] And one of them that you will hear is how expansive, how thrillingly expansive it is to be out of the body, how no one wants to come back in the body.
[00:47:14] They all say it. Oh, I didn't wanna go back. But then I heard my child call. I heard, you know, it was, I had to come back and do some more stuff. I was needed.
[00:47:29] I was, I needed to come back. But it's excruciating because to actually be one with the infinite and to go home as we all get to do after every adventure, is the real thrill.
[00:47:49] Lindsay: Is that what your musical is about?
[00:47:51] Ani: Yes.
[00:47:52] Lindsay: Really?
[00:47:54] Ani: Yes.
[00:47:55] Lindsay: I asked her upstairs, and she said, I can't, yeah. Real, tell us more.
[00:47:59] Ani: I mean, can I have been, you know, so I'm writing a musical, supposedly, maybe.
[00:48:05] I don't know. It's what I've been.
[00:48:08] Lindsay: This is so exciting.
[00:48:09] Ani: Yeah. I find it so exciting. And yeah. But I've been sort of letting this leak what I've been up to, and I have had these conversations, well, what is your musical about? And I'm like, oh.
[00:48:25] Lindsay: Right.
[00:48:26] Ani: You know, so
[00:48:26] Lindsay: Let's just share.
[00:48:29] Ani: Yeah. Okay. Is this okay? Elevator pitch? I mean, it centers around a family, and that is my context to talk, to unpack things like life and death and the nature of consciousness. And, two children in this family, one of them, the daughter, has an NDE, a Near Death Experience. She dies when she's a young child. And then comes back into her body, but retains an open channel with the spirit, which is a very common experience.
[00:49:09] Probably a lot of, you know, for people who come back into the same body, there is often, you know, they are clairvoyant, they are pre-cognizant, they are, you know, there are all these things open up for them. Other levels of consciousness, which are typically embodied, neurotypical people don't generally achieve.
[00:49:38] Her sibling, her younger brother, is a nonverbal autistic.
[00:49:45] Which. Has anybody heard the Telepathy Tapes? Yeah, baby. Another super highly recommended podcast from your folk singer, soon to be a documentary film as well. But it begins by unpacking the telepathic abilities of these non-speakers, which we are coming to understand more fully now that they have ways of communicating with Pellers.
[00:50:16] They call themselves, with us voice users. So now that they are informing the world of voice users, yeah. What their experience is, it's mind-blowing. There are many of them having relationships and friends outside their bodies. They, it's. They're in a world that does not even recognize their full senses.
[00:50:51] In many cases, they've spent so many years. Some of them, you know, some of these children are in their twenties before their parents meet them through assisted communication and stories. Like my kid knows several languages. My kid knows history, my kid, because they are graced with experiences like tapping into the Akashic record of all of human thought, of the history of human ideas.
[00:51:41] Have a whole life. You know, they, my child, I'd noticed they always go, you know, they're extremely hypersensitive to the sensory input of the body. It's completely overwhelming, and I have no control over the body and the way that a typically embodied person does. Meanwhile, they are doing all of this astral projection.
[00:52:06] They have these whole other existences that most of us knew nothing of, you know? So yeah, like my kid goes into his room and covers himself in pillows, and then I hear him in there laughing. He's hanging out with his friends. Anyway, what a cool world. And it's only just beginning.
[00:52:37] Lindsay: I have so many more questions.
[00:52:39] We, it's real quick before, 'cause we do wanna have some audience q and a, but I do wanna ask you, gosh, I, there's so much I wanna ask you about your songs and also about your creative right-brain thought process. I love how you look at that in terms of right brain, left brain. That's fascinating to me.
[00:52:59] But really, I would love to know, like, what is the thing no one tells you about the importance of following your gut and your intuition?
[00:53:08] Ani: Yeah, we unpack that a little bit here. I believe that the brain is not just up here. This is a brain to me. And, yeah, like, like when you were asking about me coming up and me trying to find my path, and should I take the record deal?
[00:53:29] This is the brain that guided me the whole way. This was the brain I was listening to. This is the one that confused me along the way and made me feel conflicted a lot. But luckily,I was paying attention to this brain. And I do think that there are, that science is beginning to open itself to the idea that the brain is only the, you know, electrical activity within the skull is old school.
[00:54:09] And that 's becoming our understanding. And I'm just all about it, knowing that this was the brain that guided me.
[00:54:23] Lindsay: Did you have people that were basically saying, " You're crazy, you need to take your record deal? You don't do it on your own?
[00:54:31] Ani: Sure. And they were not wrong.
[00:54:33] They were not wrong. You know, it was crazy in a lot of ways. It was the slow track for sure. But it was a great ride and, so yeah, I just stuck with the gut.
[00:54:54] Lindsay: I love it. Are we, Carrie, we are going to take some audience q and a.
[00:55:00] Crystal: Yeah. So folks, we have time for just a couple of questions. If anyone has a burning question for Ani, I would just ask if you could queue up here so we could capture you on the mic, please.
[00:55:11] It's not as intimidating as it looks, I promise.
[00:55:14] Ani: Yeah. The spotlight.
[00:55:20] I see someone coming over. Yes. Here comes a brave soul. Hello.
[00:55:25] Question 1: Hi there. yay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming. So I'm the dad, the proud dad, the wondrously.
[00:55:36] proud dad, and just. Of Winston Brown. He is in the Telepathy Tapes film. He's here in Westport, Connecticut, and he is fluent in Mandarin. He is fluent in Spanish. He has a girlfriend in Fairfield, Connecticut who is a non-speaking autistic. And our lives have changed so much from Kai Dickens, who I know is your bud and who adores you.
[00:56:03] And I've heard rumors about your involvement in the film project.
[00:56:06] Ani: I adore you back. I have watched you for so many hours. Wow.
[00:56:13] Question 1: So, so yeah, when, you know, our wins in the film, it changed his life. We just got back from LA, and he talked with my Bic yesterday.
[00:56:27] Being on her podcast, and he was on a soap opera last week.
[00:56:33] Ani: Amazing.
[00:56:34] Question 1: So his life is changing because people like you who are tapping into what's changing this year, next year, this awareness that it's not just what we see. If you look at this guy, you have no understanding of what's going on inside.
[00:56:55] But we are conditioned, and special education is conditioned to only base our awareness on observation. And so when everything is tied to the body and the physical, we are missing it. And, you've tapped it. So we're so grateful to have.
[00:57:15] Ani: Thank you. You've changed my life, too.
[00:57:23] Question 1: Can we say hi? Can I say hi, A, to say hi, huh? All right.
[00:57:30] Ani: Oh, I love you so much. Thank you.
[00:57:37] Yeah, you'll re-meet them in the documentary.
[00:57:42] Lindsay: That's awesome.
[00:57:45] Question 2: Hi. Hi. Hi. I suppose my question for you would be, what would you want to say to all of the humans entering into adolescence right now?
[00:58:06] Lindsay: That's a good question
[00:58:08] Question 2: And, I love you very much.
[00:58:12] Ani: Yeah. Yeah. I might start there, too, oh, yes. And then I guess if it was.
[00:58:19] It's gonna be one thing. I would be, I would say, let's just be the tolerance that we want to see in the world. I believe that young people are so beautifully woke. It's so exciting to think of what's coming. What breaks my heart sometimes is when we embody the kind of intolerance towards each other that we are pointing at in our opponents.
[00:59:00] The way that we are policing each other to do it my way is the only way, I guess. I would just put my hat in for, let's allow. Our differences. Recognize other people trying, even if their methods are their exact way, their exact words are not yours. Thank you.
[00:59:38] Hi, Ani. Hi. I'm Natalie. I've been your favorite artist since I was a teenager, and thank you so much for everything. What do you imagine when you think about these oppressive systems falling? Patriarchy, white supremacy, capitalism, and organized religion, like what do you imagine that would look like?
[01:00:02] Like how, what I imagine it would look like reciprocity. The state of being of mutual gift giving, where it's a fricking love contest, and the one who gives the most wins. Yes. Thank you.
[01:00:26] Lindsay: Good evening, Ani.
[01:00:27] Ani: Hi.
[01:00:28] Question 3: I want to thank you about eight years ago tonight. My wife, who's like everybody else here, is your biggest fan. And I shared our first, we didn't know it was gonna be our first date, and we walked outside to her car, and she had a sticker that she still has on her car, a NI, and I was like.
[01:00:53] Could she know any differently? I'm like, what is that? She's like Asani. DiFranco. And that was how we first bonded. So I wanna thank you for that, 'cause eight years, eight years, eight years later, she's sitting beside me, bawling her eyes out all night. oh. So I thank you for that. My question to you, Ani, is that there's so much negativity in the news, I can't watch it.
[01:01:19] You've been through decades of rollercoaster storms. So many people are scared right now. What advice through your experience as an artist, as a feminist, as a trailblazer, would you give to us, especially my wife, who I don't want to watch the news, to get through these times?
[01:01:44] Ani: I hear you are not able to watch the news. And I do believe that it's a very powerful truth that we give energy where we put our attention, and I think the way we got here was by following that guy around with microphones and cameras. So if your instinct is to turn your attention on all the good people around you, all the bad asses doing cool shit, and give them your attention and your energy, and get involved with that, I'm for it.
[01:02:32] Question 3: Thank you.
[01:02:36] Question 4: Hi. So, as someone who's been listening to your music for 30-something years, what is that self-editing process like? What makes you, I must, maybe instinct or the thoughts of poetry, to do what we get to listen to? I mean, there must be so much, especially with the world and everything going on, but you can't sing about everything.
[01:02:57] So what, how do you decide, like how many conversations? I mean, as an artist?
[01:03:02] Lindsay: That's a really good question. '
[01:03:03] Question 4: Cause you can't make everything, you know, I,
[01:03:05] Ani: Yeah, you
[01:03:06] Question 3: Can't make it all.
[01:03:06] Ani: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for me, I feel like it's just spaghetti gets the wall, it's just experiments. One experiment after the other.
[01:03:15] You, you're right, you can't sing about everything, but you could try. Right? And then you can find your way from there. You know, I feel like I've just. Been experimenting with singing about everything that comes to me. And then I think a big part of the process for me, because my art is also sort of a social act, you know, a big part for me is what resonates between mother people and me.
[01:03:45] And, you know, that guides me.
[01:03:49] Question 4: Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much.
[01:03:50] Ani: Yeah.
[01:03:51] Question 4: Thank you for everything.
[01:03:53] Lindsay: What is that part of the process like for you when you're writing a song and seeing it through to fruition? How is it, 'cause you've described it as it's sort of a moment of feeling. It's right.
[01:04:09] Ani: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:04:10] I mean, I guess, it's a flow state. It's not a thing that I'm conscious of when it's happening. It's a thing that I wake up from.
[01:04:22] Lindsay: I love that. It's funny 'cause in sports a lot of athletes use that same word flow when they're in their best state. Ani, thank you.
[01:04:31] Ani: Thank you.
[01:04:32] Lindsay: There are so many more things to talk to you about. But this has been amazing. We know.
[01:04:41] Ani: Thanks so much.
[01:04:42] Lindsay: Now we put our shoes on. Can you tell us when we may expect the musical, and also, I know you're touring.
[01:04:51] Ani: Oh, we're
[01:04:52] Lindsay: gonna be nearby on Mother's Day.
[01:04:54] Ani: Oh.
[01:04:54] Lindsay: yeah, I got my ticket,
[01:04:55] Ani: Right? Yes. I'll be out and about in April. The musical. Who knows? Long time, but yeah.
[01:05:01] Lindsay: Okay.
[01:05:02] Ani: All right. Thanks so much.
[01:05:03] Lindsay: Oh, thank you so much.
[01:05:04] This is amazing.
[01:05:09] I mean, like, why did I bring up donkeys? I don't know. But I feel really strongly, I, for whatever reason, donkeys always show up in my life, and I love them. So I actually felt really awesome that I got to share that story. And I so appreciated Ani bringing back the story that I had shared, waiting to go on stage in the green room about my grandma because, I have never, I don't think I've ever interviewed someone or had a conversation with someone where they have been so present in the moment and reflecting on what it was like right before we went on stage.
[01:05:42] You know, I think I just wanted her to like me, like I wanted her to like, feel good about what we were about to do. But what I realized was. I was sort of looking for this validation when I was like, Hey, so here's what I think, I'd love to talk to you about, what did you talk about in prior conversations?
[01:05:59] And she was really responding in a way like, this'll just flow. It's just gonna flow and be, and I love that when you're in conversation, and you're doing that, 'cause that means you're really listening. But it's also terrifying when you're about to walk on stage with someone who has her accolades. So anyway, my mind was blown.
[01:06:21] I really think the biggest thing I took away from that conversation with Ani was. The power of just being in the present. And we hear that so much, but really, we have the power to do that. And I really felt that from her. And the other thing I will leave you with is that I had no idea that people were telling me after, oh my gosh, people were crying in the audience.
[01:06:44] That had nothing to do with me. It was all about what she was saying. But it is just so shocking the way that one person, because of their vulnerability. How can they connect with so many others? And I thought one of the coolest stories she shared was about how she felt she was on the right musical path.
[01:07:02] Even if she looked out in the audience and saw just one person who was reacting to her songs, that was enough for her. It didn't have to be the big record label bringing her millions of screaming fans. You know, I think there's such a lesson and a gift in that thought. So I hope you loved this conversation.
[01:07:21] I could talk to her for five more episodes. But for all of us at Tea Naughty, including show producer Ashley, Dixon Ellison. Of course, Sarah Walsh, our editor, and Sam Ulta, we thank you for listening. As always, let us know what you loved about this episode. One of the best ways you could do that is by sharing an episode with a friend, of course, rate review, and as always, we look forward to seeing you here next time.
[01:07:45] Thanks so much for joining me. I can't wait to see you back here next week. Please don't forget, follow and subscribe to things no one tells you. And of course, if you're listening to Apple Podcasts, don't forget to leave a five-star review because that's really what helps people get more. Listeners, we would love to grow this community.
[01:08:01] We are so grateful that you're a part of it. See you next time.
