Being Shatterproof, Not Just Resilient with Dr. Tasha Eurich: Ep 41

podcast
Written By Lindsay Czarniak

Highlights from the episode:

  • The surprising gap between research and popular advice

  • Rebuilding confidence in small, intentional moments

  • Why high performers still feel like they’re falling short

  • The role of connection in feeling grounded

  • How small daily choices can reshape your entire experience

 

Podcast show notes:

We’ve all been told that resilience is the key to getting through hard things. Keep going. Don’t break. Handle it all. But what if that’s only part of the story?

In this episode, I sit down with organizational psychologist Tasha Eurich, who shares why resilience, while helpful, isn’t the full solution. Through years of research and real-world coaching, she found that resilience keeps us from falling apart, but it doesn’t necessarily help us build a life that feels fulfilling.

We talk about the pressure so many of us feel to hold everything together, and the simple, science-backed shifts that can help us move beyond just coping. Tasha shares a different approach, one rooted in understanding our core needs and making small, intentional shifts that can change how we experience our daily lives.

What You’ll Discover

  • Coaching leaders and building strong cultures (03:53)

  • Why resilience doesn’t predict growth (13:53)

  • The three core human needs we all share (21:27)

  • Micro “need crafting” in everyday life (24:45)

  • Letting go of perfection with the 10% buffer (27:56)

This conversation is a reminder that thriving isn’t about doing more. It’s about understanding what you actually need, and giving yourself permission to meet those needs.

If this episode resonated with you, be sure to subscribe, rate, and review Things No One Tells You. It helps more people find these conversations.

mentioned in the episode

Second Acts After an NFL Career with Vernon Davis: Episode 40

Connect with Dr. Tasha Eurich

Dr. Tasha Eurich is inviting our listeners to discover her tools to dive deeper into becoming shatterproof:

Discover Dr. Tasha Eurich’s website: www.tashaeurich.com

You can follow her on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tashaeurich/

And on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tashaeurich/

Be sure to subscribe to Things No One Tells You—Lindsay’s podcast all about the real, unfiltered conversations we don’t always have but should. From big names to everyday voices, each episode dives into the moments that shape us. Listen wherever you get your podcasts!

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Follow along with Lindsay below!

Full Transcript

[00:00:00] Lindsay: What is the thing no one tells you about resilience?

[00:00:06] Tasha: So brace yourself. The thing that nobody tells us about resilience is that it is an incomplete tool for us to not just cope with the stress in our lives, but to actually build a really great life that we wanna live. And I think, you know, we've all been taught all you have to do.

[00:00:30] You know, you have to bounce back, and you just have to sort of quietly endure and not whine, and you know, just be a very stoic receiver of all of the chaotic things that are happening in our lives. And it's almost like. Resilience expects us to sort of be unbothered by all of it. There's been some breakdown in communication between the actual, you know, academic scientific research on resilience and sort of what we've been promised in, in, you know, the popular media or just kind of in the world that we operate in.

[00:01:06] And what I learned is that resilience is not designed. To help us thrive. It's actually, you know, if we think about the practices of resilience, like I'm gonna write in my gratitude journal. I'm going to meditate, I'm gonna engage in self-care, I'm gonna get social support. Those things don't actually help us be happy through our craziness.

[00:01:28] They just keep us at a state of equilibrium. They help us not fall apart.

[00:01:34] Lindsay: Hey, everybody and welcome to the Things No One Tells You. Podcast. This is the time of year when I feel like there is obviously a lot that is. That is blooming, that is springing. And part of that also feels like chaos, which is why I am so looking forward to sharing this conversation with you today.

[00:01:54] I talked to Tasha Eurich, and Tasha is the author and she's also a scientist of the book Shatterproof. The reason I wanted to talk to Tasha is that she is, by title. She is a self-awareness coach and communications expert, which I think is just really cool because who doesn't need a little self-awareness?

[00:02:16] But the things that she studies and has done for years have been very impactful, very fascinating. But Shatterproof is her book in an effort to help you learn how to navigate the chaos. Of life, and really become your best self. So what she does by trade is she is basically a coach, as I said, and she works with world leaders.

[00:02:38] She works with sports coaches and CEOs all over to really help them. People at the top really create the culture that she has found through research is the best at maximizing, getting the best out of people. In this book, however, she talks about so many different things. Tent poles for how to really implement this in your own life.

[00:03:00] She also shared with me in this conversation her battle with the disease, the rare disease EDS, and how she discovered that she was dealing with that, and also how that has changed her life. So at the core, these are things one tells you about. Resilience, because really, that is what this book is built on.

[00:03:19] But I think at the end of the day, this conversation is really how to live your best life. Tasha, it is so awesome to have you here because I think you've written several books. You are a scientist and expert. shatterproof, though I feel like this. Encapsulates everyone that I know right now, myself, my friends, this book you have, you give this blueprint for how to navigate the chaos and welcome.

[00:03:48] It's so great to talk to you.

[00:03:49] Tasha: Thank you. It's lovely to be here. I can't wait to chat with you.

[00:03:53] Lindsay: So you're a self-awareness coach, a communications expert, and I would love to just have you explain, how would you describe what you do on a daily basis?

[00:04:05] Tasha: So on a daily basis, I joke that I have three to four jobs depending on who I talk to.

[00:04:10] my, my kind of bread and butter. You don't know anything about that, right? Like having way too many people demanding things from you all the time.  The thing that I've been doing for almost 25 years is I'm an organizational psychologist, and typically, the way I spend that time is I help CEOs be better.

[00:04:30] And, create cultures that people want to work in and be, you know, empathetic, kind, effective leaders. And I love doing that because the ripple effects are huge. You know, if you can coach the CEO of a Fortune 500 company, everybody benefits when they get better. The second thing I do. Oh yeah. Sorry.

[00:04:51] I'll stop right there.

[00:04:51] Lindsay: Well, when did you know?? No, but, and I want you to keep going, but when did you realize that piece of it? Like, when did you realize that's what you love to do and that you have a gift for?

[00:05:00] Tasha: This is kind of a funny story. I went to a really small liberal arts college on the East coast, and as far as I knew, there was only one kind of psychology, which was, you know, you wanna go be a counselor, or like

[00:05:11] Talk to people about their mothers. And I never really was super interested in that. I'm a, I'm a. Fifth generation entrepreneur. Okay, so I've always wanted to do something businessy, but I fell in love with psychology. So I actually moved to New York City the summer of 2001, and I took this, you know, introductory to organizational psychology class.

[00:05:32] And I remember it was being taught by this very bored TA who didn't wanna be there. And like, it was very sad, the whole room. And I just remember on the first day of class, like the heavens partying, and I literally said. This is what I'm supposed to do with my life. And I, oh my God, I love exactly what it was gonna look like.

[00:05:50] Yeah. And then I immediately applied to grad school, and I went on and got my PhD in it. And, I just feel, I feel so, so grateful to be able to do what I do because again, it's like the intersection of, you know, business and helping people create lives and livelihoods that bring them joy in their lives and bring them prosperity, and it's just really incredible.

[00:06:15] Lindsay: Do you remember what it was that you guys were even talking about when you felt that, when you were like, this is it.

[00:06:22] Tasha: That's, nobody's ever asked me that. I think it was like the history of the field and how it actually was kind of invented in World War II when they were, try, when they had all these draftees that they were trying to assign to all of these different jobs.

[00:06:38] Wow. And really figure out what people were suited for. And I just thought, well, first of all, that's the coolest thing ever. And second of all, I was just. So glad that there was this kind of psychology, like I actually thought I had invented it before I knew it was there. I was like, what if somebody took business and psychology and put them together?

[00:06:56] Lindsay: I actually,

[00:06:57] Tasha: Yeah.

[00:06:58] Lindsay: No, that is so cool though, because the way that you describe that, I haven't heard a lot of people say that. And honestly, that's exactly what it really speaks to me. That's how I felt when I. I wasn't sure exactly what it was I wanted to do. And we had one class that I had to take that was a practicum that was part of the communication school in my college at JMU.

[00:07:18] And I literally remember the first day when they were describing how we were all gonna have to be the different roles of putting on a television show and being like. Oh my God, this does not work. This is like heaven to me. Yes. Like I,

[00:07:33] Tasha: Yes,

[00:07:33] Lindsay: It was a feeling and it, and I think I, I say this not to get deep, and I wanna move on, but I think those are the breadcrumbs that are dropped intentionally for us.

[00:07:43] Mm-hmm. And it's supposed to feel easy, you know? And I think people lose that a lot, too. And it's like you, you know, we're so wound up with all the things, the chaos that you talk about so eloquently in your book. We don't take the time, especially now, to think that feels good and it feels right. And maybe that's exactly how it's supposed to be. I don't know.

[00:08:02] Tasha: I love that. Well, and you're right, it's a sense of ease. I always joke that I would do this for free, but luckily, people pay me, you know? Yes. Like, it's that kind of love for what we do, and lucky us.

[00:08:15] Lindsay: I know. Exactly. Exactly. So wait, so carry on. So you have that experience, and then what?

[00:08:22] Tasha: and then I just said, I'm all in on this organizational psychology thing, and went right to grad school, and because I'm such a workaholic, I was like, I can't just go to school.

[00:08:33] I also have to work full-time. And really, I actually, funny story, I coached my first CEa, nd I was 22 years old, and Wow, fell in love with it, and have been doing it ever since.

[00:08:45] Lindsay: Who was the CEO?

[00:08:47] Tasha: She was, it was a small craft brewery in the town that I went to grad school in.

[00:08:56] And it really grew and thrived,d and they sort of brought me in to do their employee survey. And then it became, you know, something that was a kind of ongoing partnership. And I just thought, I dunno, there's something to me about. I love senior executives because they're these brilliant, successful people who nobody tells the truth to.

[00:09:18] Oh, and so if you can come in there. Right. And you know, later, as I sort of developed my coaching process, I'll interview up to 40 people who work with this person. And it's not for the faint of heart, right? But it's like, how are you showing up and how can, what are your gifts and what are your limitations?

[00:09:38] And how can you really focus on something that's gonna make you even better? And I just love that. But it's such a fun process and experience. And again, they're very brave for doing it.

[00:09:51] Lindsay: Well, you, so world leaders are among the people that you have coached. I love the Sports Connection coaches in the NBA.

[00:09:59] I know you've worked with Eric Spolstra. Can you describe it? I think people in our audience would be interested in hearing that, like when it comes to a sports coach. What is that like when you're working with someone to maximize their culture? Because I could talk about sports culture all day.

[00:10:17] Tasha: I know. Well, and it's funny, I feel totally unworthy to talk about sports with you, given my, oh God, no.

[00:10:22] You know, people joke, and they say, do you like sports, Tasha? And I'm like, well, I like the team I work with. And that's, but I think that's a good example of where, what I've found, and this is so cool about what I do, is that. They could be in any business. Right. And sports, a business just like a, you know, financial services company is a business.

[00:10:42] And what's constantly amazing to me is how, you know, even as I go around the world and I work with, you know, people, I've worked on every continent but Antarctica, which is so fun.

[00:10:54] Lindsay: Yeah. That's amazing.

[00:10:55] Tasha: People are people, right? And leaders are leaders. And what, you know, the sort of chaos, going back to your point that they're dealing with every day is unique to them, but sometimes it's not.

[00:11:09] Right. You know, I think about other CEOs that I coach that aren't NBA coaches, and they also have to do, you know, interviews with a bunch of reporters that are trying to. You know, slip them up or, you know, their shareholders are breathing down their necks in terms of the results they're getting.

[00:11:28] So I would actually answer that question by saying it isn't that much different, and that's what kind of makes it so cool.

[00:11:36] Lindsay: What are some of the things that you would focus on when it comes to sports, creating a culture that is successful, that is the best that it can be?

[00:11:45] Tasha: Yeah, I mean, I think it, I think the smartest coaches in the NBA, one of the things they do, in addition to obviously focusing on developing their team and their players, and Eric is a great example.

[00:11:57] I mean, the man created positionless basketball, so that's not an I didn't come in and say like. Let me help you with that. When, right? It's like, come on now. But the area, you know, for me is helping senior executives build great organizations. And it's about building a, you know, a team that supports the team.

[00:12:19] In the best possible way. Because if you think about it, you know, not that this is the case in my experience, but if the, you know, coaches and the trainers and everybody that's there to show up for the players are not functioning successfully and optimally, that brings everything down. And so I think it's really interesting what NBA coaches do, and really all coaches aree they sort of have these two organizations that they're running, right?

[00:12:46] and the one that's. They're to serve the players. I think it's easy to overlook that, and that's why, you know, again, I think the smartest coaches also focus on leading as well as they can there.

[00:13:00] Lindsay: So it's like their team of players, but then the team that supports the players and the culture. Which is just, yeah, that's really fascinating.

[00:13:09] I actually was having a conversation with Vernon Davis, who's a former NFL tight end, and he was talking about the most successful transition that his team had when he was in San Francisco. All of a sudden, they had a new coach, and that coach, Jim Harbaugh, came in and created this like lunch pail culture.

[00:13:27] But the key there was that he gave them accountability and ownership and really stressed. The role of a man in a way that made them all wanna buy in anyway, I think that's fascinating. 

[00:13:40] Tasha: Oh, I love that.

[00:13:41] Lindsay: Yeah. When it comes to shatterproof, what is the thing no one tells you about resilience?

[00:13:50] Tasha: So brace yourself.

[00:13:53] The thing that nobody tells us about resilience is that it is an incomplete tool for us to not just cope with the stress in our lives, but to actually build a really great life that we wanna live. And I think, you know, we've all been taught all you have to do. You know, you have to bounce back, and you just have to sort of quietly endure and not whine, and you know, just be a very stoic receiver of all of the chaotic things that are happening in our lives.

[00:14:28] And it's almost like resilience expects us to sort of be unbothered by all of it. Mm-hmm. As I, so, so I've been researching this topic, resilience and what it takes to really thrive in a chaotic world for six or seven years now. And one of the things that was most surprising to me was when I dug in, and I read hundreds of scientific articles on resilience, literally, and I studied it myself, and collected my own data.

[00:14:58] Was that? People's level of resilience didn't actually predict whether they could sort of get through their hardest times and come out the other end stronger, wiser, and more fulfilled. And I thought, what's going on here? And so I sort of, as I dove in and tried to understand what was going on, it's almost like, remember when we were kids, and we would play telephone?

[00:15:24] And we would start with one person, and we'd have a message, and the next person would say the message. There's been some breakdown in communication between the actual, you know, academic scientific research on resilience and sort of what we've been promised in, you know. The popular media is just kind of in the world that we operate in.

[00:15:46] And what I learned was that resilience is not designed to help us thrive. It's actually, you know, if we think about the practices of resilience, like I'm gonna write in my gratitude journal. I'm going to meditate, I'm gonna engage in self-care, I'm gonna get social support. Those things don't actually help us be happy through our craziness.

[00:16:08] They just keep us at a state of equilibrium. They help us not fall apart. And I remember just thinking like, how could this have happened? How could we all, you know, have been taught that this is all we have to do? Because then what happens, and we'll talk about this, I'm sure that then we start to say, " Am I a failure in resilience?

[00:16:31] If everybody else seems like they're getting by and I'm doing all these things, I'm doing everything right that I've been taught to cope with, but I'm still falling apart. There must be something wrong with me. And science actually tells us that is not the case. That's not a failure for you. That's just us expecting something of resilience that it was never designed to do for us.

[00:16:53] Lindsay: Wow. So first of all, how do you collect your own data on resilience? What does that look like?

[00:17:02] Tasha: So I, actually, I guess I have five jobs. We'll talk about the other ones the next time I come on. But yeah, one of them is doing very hardcore scientific research for fun. People always say, well, if you're not, you know, if you're not a professor, how do you do it?

[00:17:17] I say, well, I just. Spend my own money, and I fund it. So for this, I hired, you know, 12 research assistants. And we did a couple of things with this study. It's actually kind of interesting. So we reviewed over 1300 scientific studies. So you don't have to try to figure out what's really going on.

[00:17:38] We interviewed. About 300 people, about how they approach getting through, we called it bad things, right? Like whatever the bad thing is, if it's work, if it's life, if it's family, you know, really trying to understand what the most successful people do. To get through the hard things in their lives.

[00:17:57] And then we collected a bunch of quantitative data. You know, it's all the surveys that we're familiar with, like on a scale of one to five. And we would collect people's resilience levels, and then we would try to see if it predicted things like, you know, the last really hard thing I got through, was made me better and stronger.

[00:18:16] And again, we found no relationship. People could have really high resilience and still say. This last thing I went through broke me. And again, that's not our fault. That's just expecting resilience to do something that it doesn't do.

[00:18:33] Lindsay: So what do you do with that?

[00:18:36] Tasha: Well, for me, I spent about a year going, oh no, right.

[00:18:40] I just sold this book, and I thought the book was about how resilience is really great and it's gonna help us.

[00:18:48] Lindsay: And wait, was this in that process? Is that you sold the book, the concepts there, so you haven't crafted it, but you're writing it about resilience, and you thought the research was gonna yield one thing, and you're saying it yielded something a little unexpected.

[00:19:02] Tasha: It did. Yeah, and you know, it takes a long time to sell books, so luckily, by the time the contract was being signed, I could be like, okay, this is what the book is really about.

[00:19:12] Lindsay: Right.

[00:19:12] Tasha: But yeah, that part of that is what makes research so fun to me, is, you know, I did another large-scale research project for my last book, Insight on Self-Awareness and.

[00:19:25] It's a surprise, right? If I found exactly what I thought I was gonna find, there's nothing interesting about that. But when I went back into those interviews I mentioned, and really again, it literally took our team a year to figure out what these people were doing differently. And again, it wasn't resilience.

[00:19:43] So that was the big aha, walking this process that, you know, became the soul of the book, to, yeah, become shatterproof.

[00:19:54] Lindsay: What is the most exciting part of that outline to you? I mean, I know this whole book is your baby, but what would you say is sort of the aha that you think is maybe one of the most beneficial things that our viewers and listeners can take away?

[00:20:12] Tasha: So, what changed my life, and what do I get? These amazing emails from all over the world, from readers, about it's really, I think, the central idea of becoming shatterproof, which is when we are being, when the chaos of life is causing us to feel like we are unable to cope, let alone thrive, instead of sucking it up and moving on.

[00:20:43] Or really just trying to get through it, trying to survive the day. There's another thing we can do that is really counterintuitive, I think, especially for women. Which is to ask ourselves, no matter what is happening in the situation, what can I do that's within my power to better meet my own needs?

[00:21:07] And that process is in the research; they call it need crafting. Right? Like we're craft, like artisanally, we're crafting our needs.

[00:21:14] Lindsay: Okay.

[00:21:14] Tasha: But what that looks like in reality is kind of going against everything we've been taught, which is that it's very selfish to focus on your needs.

[00:21:22] Lindsay: Right.

[00:21:23] Tasha: You're supposed to.. I was just gonna say, you're not doing something everyone else needs.

[00:21:26] Lindsay: Yeah. You're not doing it for anyone else.

[00:21:27] Tasha: Right, and you know, there are, and I go into this in the book, there are three. Fundamental human needs that we are all as human beings put on this earth. And it's actually not selfish to do that. It's strategic. It's what makes us, you know, not just happy in our own experience, but able to be of service to other people.

[00:21:48] Lindsay: I love that. Strategic, not selfish.

[00:21:51] Tasha: Exactly.

[00:21:53] Lindsay: So in that vein, and it's so funny 'cause I'm thinking about this, you know, it's like in a way. Because of everything, the way it is in society and how busy things are now, and how things just keep evolving and getting busier, and you've got the phones and the whole thing.

[00:22:11] It's We have lost this measuring stick for what's appropriate with that. And I'm not even saying that. Sorry, I'm not even saying there should be a measuring stick for focusing on our own needs. But you hit the nail on the head when you said that, especially for women, because I feel like.

[00:22:31] You're right. My natural question, listening to what you just explained, was, okay, so can you give a couple of examples of that, of like, when realizing that you need to craft your own needs and attend to that, and what that would be?

[00:22:46] Tasha: Absolutely. I can even just mind my own life in the last, you know, 24 hours.

[00:22:51] Lindsay: Yes.

[00:22:52] Tasha: Let me first go over what the three needs are, because I think that's kind of the foundation of this. And again, the idea is to say which of these three needs. Is most. Lacking like today in my life. And again, not trying to do everything, really being practical and focused and saying, okay, this is the need I need to make sure I'm fulfilling for myself.

[00:23:16] So the first need, again, biologically programmed in all humans, is the need to feel confident. And what that's about is really not just feeling like we are capable of doing the things that we need to do in our lives, but we're also growing. We're improving our skills, we're honing what we're doing.

[00:23:37] The second need is choice. And this one is really about two things. One feels like we have a sense of autonomy. Like I can make choices in my life for myself. But also, I can live my life as the person that I am. So autonomy and authenticity are really the two things behind that. And then the third, which is what a lot of scientists argue is literally the fundamental human need.

[00:24:04] It's a connection. And that's really having at a couple of levels. Like, one is just feeling like we belong in our community, right? We go to the dry cleaner's, and we talk to the nice person who works there. We, you know, have our people in our community, but we also have close, mutually supportive relationships.

[00:24:24] So that's kind of the, that's like the menu of what our needs, you know, really need, to be and what needs to be fulfilled. But I'll give you an example of just how simple this process is, because I think people hear this and they're like, oh my gosh, I need to completely revamp my life because I've not been feeling very confident.

[00:24:45] What we've found, nd I and other researchers have found, is what I call micro need crafting. It's these tiny things we can do on a daily basis that have been scientifically shown to make our lives better. So here's the example. Wow. Last night,

[00:25:02] Lindsay: Listen up, people.

[00:25:03] Tasha: Listen up, people I know. This is, I literally feel like this is the secret to a happy life.

[00:25:08] And, I've been able to experience that personally, and again, it's just really fun to see everybody applying this. So last night, until the wee hours of the evening, I was working on a coaching report for A CEO that I'm gonna fly to later this week. And, you know, I've been writing these reports for years and years, but there was something about these results that I just, I couldn't get my head around.

[00:25:35] What were these you? Three or four limitations that I was gonna, you know, fly to him and say, mm-hmm. Guess what? You're not perfect. And so what I ended up doing was I, I've been kind of on the side just for fun, learning the guitar, and Oh, cool. There was a song that I just, I finally got like last week, and I remember playing it and just having this feeling of like, you know, I'm a I'm, I am sure if anyone listened to me, they would not agree, but like, I'm a rockstar, right?

[00:26:04] I'm just nailing this. So I said," You know what I need to do? Instead of continuing to bang my head against the wall and not figure out these limitations, I'm actually gonna take a 20-minute break and just go play that song over and over. And sure enough,

[00:26:19] Lindsay: Wow.

[00:26:20] Tasha: I was like, yes. And then I went back, and something clicked in my brain.

[00:26:25] It wasn't immediate, right? I didn't instantly have the answer, but the whole emotional experience of that task changed because I had given myself that quick hit of confidence. And what we know from the research is that when we do that, it transfers to other things. So it literally can be that simple.

[00:26:44] Lindsay: And so that feeling for you wasn't about you getting your mind away from the thing that was frustrating you at the moment, that task, and switching to a different task; it was the fact that you were feeling confident when you were playing the guitar?

[00:26:58] Tasha: Yeah. That was how I chose it. So I didn't say, I mean, I knew I was gonna have to do something different because working on that report, yeah, was draining my confidence. But what I, the question I asked myself, was really specific. It was, how can I get a quick hit of confidence? How can I feel like I am a capable human again?

[00:27:16] Because you know how it goes. Like we, I, for me at least, I get in these loops of, you know, you've been doing this for 25 years and yet you're totally incompetent. And just to get yourself out of that and have a different emotional experience.

[00:27:30] Lindsay: So what are ways that you think people can give themselves quick hits of confidence?

[00:27:35] That's such a great. You know the thought process to take yourself through.

[00:27:40] Tasha: So a tool I talk about in Shatterproof that I, yes, I love helping my clients with, who are, by the way, all perfectionists, not that you and I know anything about that,

[00:27:51] Lindsay: I know, my poor children.

[00:27:53] Tasha: I know I'm recovering. I always say I'm recovering.

[00:27:56] I call it the 10% buffer. And basically, whatever it is, I love this, so I'm thinking about a CEO that I coached, I talk about in the book named Grace, and she was driving herself crazy. With the 1% of people who were unhappy with her, she would stay up at night and worry. And you think about being a CEO, like there is no way you can make everyone happy.

[00:28:18] It's just impossible. So the tool I introduced to her, I call the 10% Buffer, and it's basically giving yourself permission to be excellent and perfect 90% of the time. So for her, what changed was that she stopped asking herself, " Is everyone happy with me losing the game? And she started asking herself, do does, do my employees feel heard, even if they're not okay.

[00:28:49] So that's an example of changing the standard for ourselves in a way that's not gonna, you know, affect our success. In fact, she got more successful, and she was more confident. But it helps us maybe stop being our own worst enemy when the difference between 90% and a hundred percent only matters to us.

[00:29:09] Lindsay: Wow. And have you heard from a lot of people who have found success and had these aha moments? From your book,

[00:29:20] Tasha: It's been. Incredible. I'm actually, if I had the resources, I'd be able to be like, here are 25 examples. But I've been collecting all of them. And what people are saying is it's almost like a different philosophy that they're living their lives by now.

[00:29:39] They went from, you know, being, I call them, I call us stressed-outtrivers, like we have things coming at us from every part of our lives. Yeah. And all these demands, and they never end. Trying to make everyone happy and just getting through the day to taking a step back, even if it's just, you know, a two-minute conversation we have with ourselves and saying, " What do I actually need right now?

[00:30:03] And again, like giving ourselves the permission. It's not, it knows. I think it takes a little while, at least in my experience, to get rid of that guilt. But I think there's a certain sense of like, I know this is gonna work for me because it is how I'm wired as a human. So I would, you know, any of your watchers or listeners, if it feels kind of weird the first couple times or the first period of time, keep going because there's gonna be some aha moment.

[00:30:33] And that's what the, what readers are writing me about, just to say like, I put this into practice and then all of a sudden this was happening. And Yeah. You know, again, it's not; we're not changing our lives. We're incrementally just sort of changing the micro decisions that we're making. But then if you add up.

[00:30:53] The total impact of that. You know, if you're asking yourself five times a day, what's, you know, what do I need right now? Like, maybe I need to not go to that dinner party that I've been dreading because my feelings of choice have been, you know, messed with in my workday. That's what it's about.

[00:31:11] Lindsay: Well, in that example, I mean, do you have a process that you suggest for those types of decisions?

[00:31:19] Because I feel like everyone can relate to that. There are so many things, and maybe it is a dinner party, maybe it's a gathering of sorts, or something that you're just like, I feel spread thin. Probably my gut is saying, nah, let's not do this. But there's a world of reasons that you feel like you should, and I love how you talk about that, too, in your book.

[00:31:38] Yeah, just the should and the, I think this is what I, you know, need to be doing. How do you reconcile those things?

[00:31:47] Tasha: I'm not sure I have the 100% answer, butlett e offer you a thought o, two, and then maybe you can tell me what you think.

[00:31:54] Lindsay: Yes.

[00:31:55] Tasha: So I think, you know, first of all, if we just blew with the wind of like, you know, oh, I don't really feel like doing that.

[00:32:03] We would probably never do anything, right? So mm-hmm. What we don't wanna do is overcorrect in a way that all of our friends are mad at us, and nobody invites us to their dinner parties anymore. Right, right.

[00:32:15] Lindsay: Because that is the reality.

[00:32:17] Tasha: It is the reality, and especially for me as an introvert, like if I gave myself permission to start doing that, everyone would, you know, drop me and not be my friend anymore.

[00:32:25] but I do think it's maybe it's a threshold. Maybe if I'm thinking about going to this dinner party, and I'm Maybe if I went, I'd get a hit of connection, right? Like I'm feeling a little tired, I'm feeling a little rundown, but I'm not actively dreading it. But maybe if you think about the dinner party and I don't know, it's maybe 'cause of the people that'll be there or, 'cause you're exhausted.

[00:32:55] Yeah. And you're literally having a physical feeling of dread. I think that's a signal. And just maybe as another comment before I, 'cause I really wanna hear what you think. 'cause I know you, you juggle infinite numbers of things. You know, we really have to. Think about boundaries. Yeah. And say like, if I am dreading this and I think it is going to be bad for me, my friend's gonna understand again, unless I've done that the last five times, my friend is gonna understand.

[00:33:27] Lindsay: I think. Yes. I think that's a really good. Measuring stick to have. If there is a physical component to it, then yes. Maybe you're listening. That is, I would say, because it was funny, I was gonna ask you about where you were with boundaries, like what you think about boundaries, 'cause I think that's really, it's a no-shocker here for people that know me, but it's a hard thing to draw boundaries.

[00:33:51] Tasha: It's so hard.

[00:33:53] Lindsay: I really suck at that. And you know, sometimes I pay the price, but it's also like that. As my mother would say, you know, she deals with FOMO all the time. So it's like on one hand you're like, yes, my body feels better. The decision that I think is best for me is not to do the thing.

[00:34:11] But then there's also that layer of stuff. Sure. It's like, oh, but, but no, I really like the idea that you keep coming back to about, just about checking in with yourself and really. Taking the time to do that. but I, and I, really like the thought that you just shared about maybe there's a hit of connection because I do think, You know, and like what I love about covering sports, but also broadening and talking to different people who are authors and leaders and everyday folks is like, that really is such a through line is just the connection, you know, and how that really is what it's all about and how we get energy from that too.

[00:34:55] So I think that's really insightful. And I also think that, you know, when you talk. Early on in the book about how we are programmed to focus on the negative and to, or to pay much more attention to things. And this is sort of a different topic, but I was like, yeah, you know, that's just, it's so true.

[00:35:14] And it's like. We as humans are drawn to positivity because that makes us feel good, and sharing compliments from one another makes us feel good and helps with connection. But for whatever reason, we pay attention to that negative. So I don't really have a point right now, but I just, I think there's so much to all of this, and I like, I really just think that these tools that you share are really.

[00:35:42] Awesome and eye-opening, and I think everyone should read it because it's, it is really like the, and the backed in science piece is awesome.

[00:35:52] Tasha: Well, and speaking of the back in science piece, I agree with you. I think it's really important for us to understand, and sort of, how we're wired as humans. And to your point, it's this weird paradox because we're drawn to positive things.

[00:36:08] There's a, you know, it's like the metaphor that if you put a plant in a window, it'll kind of grow to the light

[00:36:13] Lindsay: Yes. And go see it.

[00:36:15] Tasha: That's us at our best. But we are at our worst, or we are at our best, in our survival mode. If you think about our human ancestors, right? Who were like literally facing life and death every day.

[00:36:28] Weave something called a bad things bias. And it's basically like despite. The fact that we wanna grow into the sunlight. Our brains are designed to pay more attention to bad things. And if you think about it, you know, let's say, you know, our ancestors, you know, somebody left their.

[00:36:49] Habitat that day, and went out hunting, and yeah, they found an area where there were a lot of predators. They had to pay attention to that. They had to encode that in their brains because if they, you know, were focused so much on the positive that they forgot they, you know. They might forget to tell their family members not to go there.

[00:37:09] They might go there again themselves. And so I think that's another thing, it feels sometimes like our brains and emotions are working against us, and it gives us a little bit of grace to just be like, okay. And you can talk to yourself. You can say brain, bo, anddy, and emotions. I understand that this is what you're designed to do.

[00:37:30] I understand that. You know, the thing that's making me. You know, a day, a week after I said that stupid thing in that meeting, not being able to stop thinking about it is actually the thing. Yeah. That kept us alive. It's the reason I'm here. It's the reason I'm here to obsess over that comment at work. and just to normalize that.

[00:37:52] I think that's another way that we can give ourselves grace, and I think that's another thing that's really at the foundation of becoming shatterproof.

[00:38:01] Lindsay: Oh, that's so good. That is so good. How has becoming shatterproof also played a role in your health journey? Because I know that has been a huge thing.

[00:38:14] Tasha: So this is a long story that I'm gonna condense very significantly, but I haven't, in my, you know, in the, in over three books and, you know, a couple decades of a career, I've never actually had the experience of living out the research problems that I was trying to solve. And for whatever reason, it kind of started in COVID.

[00:38:38] I, I've had a, I've had a lifelong history of just mysterious medical ailments that doctors would say, oh, you're too young, or there's no way you're actually having this experience. You know, I come in as a 25-year-old and say, I am in 10 out of 10 pain everywhere in my body every day. And they'd say, " That's impossible.

[00:38:58] So it wasn't new to me to have these sorts of like, you know, just medical mysteries that I was trying to deal with. But I think it was because of COVID, like everybody just slowed down, and I stopped running on adrenaline. I started getting sicker and sicker. Where to the, it was to the point where, you know, after like nine or 10 months, I was basically bedbound.

[00:39:24] And what was interesting to me

[00:39:25] Lindsay: In pain, or was it like? What type? What was the pain like?

[00:39:29] Tasha: So it was, 10 out of 10 pain. I couldn't point to anywhere. Likewise, sometimes my neck would be really bad, but it was almost everything that was, that could go wrong. Went wrong. So examples would be, I would stand up too quickly, and I would fall to the floor and faint due to my heart rate.

[00:39:48] I would be sitting here just like I'm talking to you, and my heart rate would be 150 beats a minute, or I would., would have fed the dog half an hour ago and totally forgot that I had fed the dog. I was exhausted. I was like, my body was just, it was like rioting against me basically. I had been through difficult health experiences, and I would argue that some of them were more difficult than what I was dealing with at that time.

[00:40:21] But what I experienced during that. Was more of an emotional impact where I literally woke up one day and was like. I've been resilient. I've been going to doctor after doctor, and I've been trying to manage my symptoms. I've been doing, you know, gentle exercise. I've been eating well. I've been, you know, leaning on my friends and talking, but none of this is actually helping me.

[00:40:46] And the, I remember it so clearly. I had been to a doctor's appointment, and I got home, and I kind of got back in bed, ed and I pulled the covers up over me. And I remember I was wearing my sushi pajamas, lia ke a very distinct detail, and mm-hmm. I was like, I can't do this anymore. I'm done. And I had no idea what that feeling was until several months later when I discovered something called the Resilience Ceiling.

[00:41:15] And it's basically the moment that our coping ability runs out because we've been taught that it's infinite because the harder things

[00:41:26] Lindsay: It's our toughness.

[00:41:26] Tasha: You go through, the stronger you get, right? What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. That's actually not scientifically true. What doesn't kill us and what requires us to constantly cope and navigate every day with all these demands and all these challenges, actually makes it harder to be resilient.

[00:41:44] So it, it was a very interesting experience to have lived that. The good news is, and this is what is so crazy, and I'm like, you know. This changed my life in a way that I never even anticipated this writing this book would, but when I figured out the shatterproof process, which is four steps that I talk about in the book, I followed it.

[00:42:06] I completely changed the way that I was navigating this illness. I went from being kind of like a passive victim to the CEO of my medical journey. I was able to get a diagnosis. It's a rare genetic disease called Aler Dam low syndrome, and it affects your body's ability to produce collagen and elastin, which are two proteins that are in every system of our body.

[00:42:32] But the average time to diagnosis of this disease is 20 years. And

[00:42:39] Lindsay: Whoa,

[00:42:40] Tasha: I was able, and granted I had a lifetime of this nonsense, so I, I'm not sure when the clock actually started, but about six months after I started following this process, I had, I didn't just have my diagnosis in hand. I had a team of doctors.

[00:42:57] Were not gaslighting me, that was helping me, that was using, you know, it, there's no treatment technically and no cure for EDS or Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, but there's a lot you can do to feel like 1% better. And it's just amazing when I look at my life and, you know, like a year following. That moment that I hit my resilience ceiling,

[00:43:21] Lindsay: Yeah.

[00:43:21] Tasha: I was feeling better than I had felt in years, not just better than I was when I, you know, became bed bad, but better than I had in years, and I felt. Finally, like myself again. And when I look back on that, I know that it was because I was working on not just my medical journey, but in that context, I was getting my own needs met.

[00:43:41] I was working on my confidence, I was finding choice. I was getting way better at connection. 'Cause it can be really alienating. When you're mm-hmm. When you're facing something like that, so, yeah, it's kind of crazy. Like I, it's almost like you can't make that stuff up, but as it was happening, I just remember thinking, I have to figure out what people are doing differently than resilience, because in some ways my life felt like it depended on it.

[00:44:09] Lindsay: And did pivoting become part of that? Would you say?

[00:44:14] Tasha: So one of the things that I talk about in the book is, and this goes back to what we were saying, we don't have to completely remake our lives to better meet our own needs and to solve the problems that we're facing. So actually the first thing I did was I decided there was gonna be one thing that I was gonna do differently, as you know, you know, sort of baby shatterproof Tasha.

[00:44:38] And that was that I was gonna spend, this is. Pre-chat GPT 30 minutes a day. Researching rare illnesses. Wow. A strength that I have is that I could build my confidence on is that I love reading nerdy scientific journal articles. And I thought, well, you know, I'm not a doctor, and I can look up the terms, but I know how to read a journal article.

[00:45:01] So I started doing that no more, no less. Every day it was 30 minutes, sometimes it was more, but as I was doing that. I started before I even had, ad like, oh, this is the disease I have in my hand. I started to feel different because I was taking control. I was increasing my sense of confidence. And at the same time, I was, you know, doing other things to build a connection.

[00:45:25] But that was actually what led me to be able to go to specialists and say, hi. I know you have been taught in medical school that you'll never see one of me in your entire career, but I'm pretty sure I have e df. How can we get this solved? Right. And it took me a couple of doctors to get somebody who would diagnose it, but literally, wow.

[00:45:47] It was 30 minutes a day. That set everything in motion.

[00:45:52] Lindsay: And so you basically discovered what you thought it was, and you were correct.

[00:45:58] Tasha: And my friend Bob Glazer, who's an author, writes great books. I was on his pod podcast a couple of months ago, and he goes, " Do you ever wonder how much easier that would've been if you had Chat GP...T.

[00:46:10] Lindsay: Tasha, right?

[00:46:14] Tasha: I'm like, Bob, let's not talk about that. Let's move on.

[00:46:17] Lindsay: But that's okay. You. But because you lived through it and you went through it yourself, and therefore Iasike you have now, it plays such a role, I think, in what you are able to give to others too.

[00:46:31] Tasha: That's so well said. I love that.

[00:46:34] Lindsay: It's true.

[00:46:34] But Tasha, it is so great to chat with you, and I know, you know, I could keep you here all day, but before, before we say goodbye. Is there something that you're most hoping people take away from this conversation or from reading your book, Shatterproof? What would you say is the most important thing to you?

[00:46:55] Tasha: So I'd come back to it, the two-part takeaway number one, if resilience isn't working for you, it is not your failure. It is that resilience was not designed for the lives that we live. And then number two, instead of being resilient, if you start to craft your own needs, it's not selfish. It's strategic.

[00:47:30] Lindsay: Strategic, not selfish. It's a great t-shirt. It's, I also wanna compliment you on the bookshelf behind you because that rainbow is speaking to me. I love it.

[00:47:42] Tasha: It was my COVID project. Thank you. It makes me happy.

[00:47:47] Lindsay: No, listen, I, it's so great to talk to you. I just love hearing all of your thoughts, and I would love to talk more.

[00:47:53] We would love to have you back, but thank you so much for joining us.

[00:47:56] Tasha: Thanks, Lindsay. It was such a pleasure.

[00:47:59] Lindsay: I really hope that you guys, whether you were watching or listening, will go to our show notes and see where you can find more. from Tasha. I loved everything she had to share about how her findings are backed by science, and I really think that the things that she has discovered along the way are things and tools that we can take and apply to our lives.

[00:48:18] I also really. loved her story about how she came to be in this profession in the first place. And I do think that we need to keep in mind that when something out there seems exciting, when it seems like it might light us up, but more than anything, when it seems like it feels easy, those are the things that we should be paying attention to.

[00:48:38] So thank you so much for joining us for this episode of Things No One Tells You. Again, the book is Shatterproof by Tasha Eurich. We hope that you'll share this episode with a friend that you think needs it or could benefit from it. Also, rate review, and as always, we appreciate you being a part of this community, and we can't wait to see you here next week.

[00:48:58] Thanks so much for joining me. I can't wait to see you back here next week. Please don't forget to follow and subscribe to Things No One Tells You. And of course, if you're listening on Apple Podcasts, don't forget to leave a five-star review because. That's really what helps people get more. Listeners, we would love to grow this community.

[00:49:14] We are so grateful that you're a part of it. See you next time.

Lindsay Czarniak
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