Why Friendship Is More Important Than We Realize with Dr. Sue Varma: Ep 54
Highlights from the episode:
How loneliness can affect the body and impact health
Why not every friend has to be your 3:00 AM person
How showing up in the same places can make meeting new people easier
The surprising amount of time it can take to build a real adult friendship
What it looks like to make friendship more intentional
Podcast show notes:
What if friendship belonged on your health checklist right alongside movement, sleep and everything else we’re told to do as part of our overall wellness?
I have thought about friendship differently ever since meeting Dr. Sue Varma. Because as much as I love my friends, I also know the feeling of wondering whether I’m doing enough, and I know how easy it is for friendship to take last place as a priority. Has life gotten so busy that friendship keeps sliding to the bottom of the list?
Dr. Sue is a board-certified psychiatrist and author of Practical Optimism, and she makes a compelling case that friendship is not simply something that makes life better. Connection matters to our health, too.
In this episode, we talk about loneliness, friendship guilt, why small talk counts, how to reconnect after time has passed, and what actually helps us make friends as adults.
What You’ll Hear:
What loneliness can mean for our overall health (08:27)
Why small talk is more important than we think (13:16)
How phones quietly keep conversations from going deeper (21:02)
The time and effort adult friendship actually takes (24:20)
Practical ways to make friends later in life (36:53)
This episode is a reminder that connection doesn’t always require a grand gesture. Show up. Ask the question. Remember something someone told you. Make the first move. And maybe give yourself a little grace when life gets in the way.
Subscribe to Things No One Tells You for more conversations about the things we are all navigating but don’t always talk about. And if you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend.
Connect with Dr. Sue Varma
Check out Dr. Sue Varma’s website https://www.doctorsuevarma.com/
Follow her on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/doctorsuevarma
Be sure to subscribe to Things No One Tells You—Lindsay’s podcast all about the real, unfiltered conversations we don’t always have but should. From big names to everyday voices, each episode dives into the moments that shape us. Listen wherever you get your podcasts!
Follow along with Lindsay below!
Full Transcript
[00:00:00] Dr Sue: And I think people don't tell you how much other people actually want to hear from you. There's this interesting study they had done, like a strap-hanger study in Chicago, and they looked at people on a subway, and they found that they asked you, "Would you talk to a stranger?
[00:00:16] Do you think they like you? Do you think it's weird?" And people, when they talk to strangers, both parties benefit. But you don't realize that, standing online, you're at a coffee shop talking to a barista, like, making chit-chat, small talk. The other thing people don't tell you is that small talk isn't small talk.
[00:00:30] Small talk counts. If somebody said, "Oh, I need to get in," for example, "this 10,000 steps a day," think of friendship as steps. Have in your mind that every day I'm gonna have at least three connections with people, and that could be pushing the elevator button and turning to your neighbor and being like, "I made small talk. Check."
[00:00:48] Lindsay: Welcome to another episode of Things No One Tells You. Ah, guys, I am ... This actually might be the episode that I'm most feeling like there is really amazing information that I know is going to benefit you. So we're talking today to Dr. Sue Varma. She is a board-certified psychiatrist. But I met Dr. Sue.
[00:01:10] because I was co-hosting the Today Show last spring, and we were doing a segment, and they were like, "We are talking about friendship today, and Dr. Sue Varma is our expert." And I was literally 10 seconds into this conversation with her, and I just could not stop thinking, "I have got to find a way to have a lengthier conversation."
[00:01:31] So I am so grateful that this is that platform because friendships are actually important for our health, and that is what Sue was talking about. But I have been really interested in this topic for so long, and a big reason is that oftentimes I feel like I'm failing at friendship. And I say that not to be like, "Oh, woe is me," but to be like, I'm wondering if you guys feel like that as well.
[00:01:54] I think when, when you're of a certain age, and when I left college and started on this journey of wanting to be successful in journalism, it's like you have to move a lot. And oftentimes I feel like I'm not connecting or I'm not reaching out enough. And when Sue started talking, and she was discussing not only how to make friends later in life, but also just the importance of nurturing and keeping friendships, I thought none of us are alone, and I'm sure that people are feeling the same way.
[00:02:26] So Sue is going to share her thoughts on why friendship is important, not just for our happiness but also for our health, literally. Very important information. But she's also gonna talk about very practical lessons and the things that we can do that you need to hear. There is one thing that she shared about the dinner table that I've known, but this is a practice that we are going to institute because it is super important.
[00:02:53] Also, she is the author of a book, Practical Optimism. This book has so much good stuff in it, and she kind of shares some of these key points in our conversation. But I'm gonna stop talking so you guys can listen, and maybe afterwards we can be friends. Dr. Varma, I, uh, I have been thinking so much about the conversation that we had, the segment on the Today Show about friendship, just since that time, which was over a month ago, and just thinking, "Oh my gosh, I have so many questions to ask you."
[00:03:24] And it's interesting because I've, since then, had some different conversations with friends just about, like, why is this con- this, this topic so fascinating to me? So I'm really excited today to hear what you really think, what you can tell us about maybe the thing no one tells you about friendship and best practices.
[00:03:42] But also, I wanna share that your book, Practical Optimism, which is the art/science practice of exceptional wellbeing, it kind of ties right into this, so that is awesome. And if you could just, explain in a blurb just what that is. And also, you've been a psychiatrist for 20 years. You've been talking about all these different things for that length of time, and doing it also on television, which is amazing.
[00:04:09] Tell me how this started.
[00:04:11] Dr Sue: Yes. So, I think the through line in all the hats that I wear as a practicing psychiatrist, I'm on faculty at NYU where I teach the next generation of doctors, and as a medical commentator for 20 years, is education. And I love-- I'm a nerd. I love learning, I love studying, and I love the brain, behavior, medicine, science, longevity.
[00:04:33] And to me, psychiatry was the intersection of it all, where it is equal parts science, and it's equal parts art, the art of conversation, the art of connecting, of listening, of empathy. And I feel like these are things I think about a lot in my day-to-day life with my spouse, with my kids, with my friendships.
[00:04:53] and it's in the work that I do, and I feel like all of them sort of inform and enrich each other. I think the things that make me a better therapist are things that make me a better friend and vice versa. And sometimes it's tricky, like turning that therapist hat off when you're with a friend.
[00:05:07] I was with a group of women the other day, and one of them was like-- I was asking her how she's been since I last saw her and how her kids are doing, and she interrupted me, and then she turned to the group and said, Sue has an interesting way of making you feel like you're the only person in the room."
[00:05:21] And I got quiet, and I was like, "Well, and then somebody else butting in, ' She's very curious." And they're like, and they're like, "In a good way." But then my friend turned and said, " Do you like analyzing me?" And I thought that was so interesting. And I made a joke. I'm like, "No, I'm off duty."
[00:05:36] But, there is a part of it where you're, you are curious, but it's always in curiosity, like in service of somebody else. So I think that if you think about friendship, and Lindsay, you had said something to me which stuck with me when I just think that being interested in other people and asking them questions from a genuine point of view, and I think we're so stuck in our own lives, and fixated on our own lives.
[00:05:59] And a lot is going on in the world, and I get it, and we have less support than ever. But if you can step outside, you talk about, you talk about the pillar of the present, and if we're able to step outside of the ruminations and this record that plays on an endless loop in our head, right.
[00:06:15] And just be settled enough in ourselves to be able to say, "How are you? Tell me more." That in itself is just the first step to showing up for a friend.
[00:06:24] Lindsay: I think that, yes, I actually wrote that down, that when we were together, a while back, you had said, I think one of the clips also that they had, they kept posting was, we're so focused on being interesting and being interested, which is what you're saying.
[00:06:39] And so- yeah... what is really interesting to me about that, and I remember when we were all talking there, I was just thinking, "Oh, this is so, I wanna dig deeper," because, when you're starting too, when I think about career or just my path, I had, I hopped trying to make it as a television journalist, as a sports reporter, as you hop from market to market.
[00:07:03] And I had friendships; my friendships are super valuable to me, but in doing that, you're having to choose the thing, the career, oftentimes. And I sort of realized you were exactly right because in every environment I was in, I made good friends. But when you're in a season of life where you are trying to make it, you're, I, often was choosing the work over the friendship, and sometimes that's necessary.
[00:07:29] You have to do it to take the next step. But now, having an opportunity to be back in it at a different workplace, I really have realized that it is really so much about the people as well, and the relationships that you're nurturing, and the people that you're around. And Melvin, my husband, and I talk about this all the time, like, and it's what you said about yourself and your friend saying that you make people feel like they're the only person in the room.
[00:07:54] I really think that is a gift that my husband has had for a really long time, and I think for me, it took me realizing that and being like- the most important thing is not the job, but even if it is and you're striving for that, there, it all is gonna work out the same, but the way that you treat people and the way that you, uh, show up for people really matters, and it enriches your life.
[00:08:17] But also, you said that it's like our health is dependent on good friendships, right? I was like, "What?" Totally. Totally. I mean, you brought numbers to the table, and I'm like, "This is wild."
[00:08:27] Dr Sue: Yes. And we know, like, there's been a lot of study, and I'm so glad and grateful for it, so that you can quantify the impact of loneliness and the lack of relationships.
[00:08:38] So, for example, loneliness has the same negative health impact on us as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. So if all of us are like, "Well, I don't wanna be a smoker. I don't wanna get cancer and heart disease and all of that," well, guess what? If you are not making an effort to maintain friendships, you might as well be.
[00:08:56] I mean, granted, I'm not suggesting by any means- you go light up ... to take up ... Yeah. Don't do that. But it's like you're causing a lot of harm to your body, and we know that people who have strong friendships have 50% less risk of dying over the X number of years, less risk of cardiac disease, of stroke, or diabetes.
[00:09:16] So really thinking of friendships, I tell my patients, "Write it down. It is a prescription. I want you to put it in your calendar." And I really firmly believe that the quality of your life depends on the quality of your relationships, and that we know that people who spend a time cultivating relationships in midlife, 40s, 50s, 60s, they will live longer and they will have a better quality of life.
[00:09:41] They're more likely to be living independently in their 70s and 80s. So this is not a nice-to-have, "Oh, that's great. I wish I had friends." No, you must. If you're going to the gym, and I hope all of our listeners are, 'cause I'm, like, thinking about resistance training like my life depends on it, because most women will spend the last decade of their life in poor health, in declining health, you know- God forbid, m- likely in a nursing home, right? We end up ex- having accelerated muscle loss, bone loss, close to m- menopause and beyond. So I just think of this as one of the levers that you can pull. Everyone's into sauna and red light and cold plunge and, h- supplements, and I'm like, "This needs to be up there," because it's and the dividends and the return on investment is exponential.
[00:10:30] Lindsay: Scientifically, I mean, what have you found about that, about how you can compare that in the same sense to smoking? Why?
[00:10:37] Dr Sue: Yes. So, loneliness in- increases all of your inflammatory markers, so it's it is like having atherosclerosis or, you might as well be eating, and I'm not suggesting that you, should be, but when we talk about, "Oh, I wouldn't eat 17 hamburgers," or anything, I wouldn't be drinking a pint, or like a bottle of vodka a day.
[00:10:56] All of these things that society has told us are bad, and we all "Duh, of course I wouldn't do that," or, "Duh, I know that. Even if I am doing it, I know that it's bad for my health." But when we think of underlying disease, it's always inflammation in the body and cortisol, uh, elevation. So loneliness, it's a pres- it's a biological perception of threat that something bad is going to happen to me, and we think about it from a biological evolutionary point of view, if y- there was always like strength in numbers, like you felt like people had your back. And it's just this perception, and I talk about this in my book. In Practical Optimism, people is one of the eight pillars of practical optimism and it, and really optimism to me is a way of living longer, and we know that optimistic people, they have more friends, and if you have more friends, you tend to be more optimistic.
[00:11:46] But why? Optimism is just the ability to see the glass as half full. But practical optimism helps you change this positive mindset into positive outcomes through tools, through action, and making friends and maintaining friends is one of those really important actions. Like it is a job, and there are different types of friendships.
[00:12:06] Like, I think a lot of us get disappointed, and that could be one reason why we give up. You mentioned, Lindsay, being like when you're working, and you have kids, and they're young, and they need you, and you have a lot going on; our friendships tend to go to the back burner, so it's understandable.
[00:12:21] But I also think that there are so many levels and layers of friendships, and nobody tells us how easy it is to maintain them if you are intentional about it.
[00:12:31] Lindsay: Is that the thing no one tells you about friendship that you would say?
[00:12:34] Dr Sue: Yes. Yes. That is, it requires intention, that it is easier than you think, that it must be practiced like it's medicine, that your life and the quality of your life depends on your friendships.
[00:12:47] And I think people don't tell you how much other people actually want to hear from you. There's this interesting st- study they had done, like a strap-hanger study in Chicago, and they looked at people on a subway, and they found that they asked you, like, "Would you talk to a stranger?
[00:13:02] Do you think they like you? Do you think it's weird?" And people, when they talk to strangers, both parties benefit. So we have this wh- whole thing in our head i: I want to talk to anybody; leave me alone. And I get it, safety, sure. Sure, sure. But you don't realize- intergenerational transmission. Yeah.
[00:13:15] Lindsay: For a certain age group.
[00:13:16] Dr Sue: Yes. Yes, totally. But you don't realize that standing online, you're at a coffee shop talking to a barista, like making chitchat, small talk. The other thing people don't tell you is that small talk isn't small talk. Small talk counts. If somebody said, "Oh, I need to get in," for example, "this 10,000 steps a day."
[00:13:32] By the way, n- no one tells you that 5,000 and 7,000 steps are as good for your mental health as 10,000 in terms of, like, preventing depression. So you don't need as many steps, but let's say you're diligent about X amount of steps. You know what? I think of s- think of friendship as steps.
[00:13:50] Have in your mind that every day I'm gonna have at least three connections with people, and that could be pushing the elevator button and turning to your neighbor and being like, "I made small talk. Check."That's right there. On the way, you happen to see your neighbor. Make some small talk. Any opportunity.
[00:14:03] I went to the hair salon to get my hair done for you, Lindsay, today for the podcast. And I was like- You do.
[00:14:07] Lindsay: It looks great.
[00:14:08] Dr Sue: Thank you. And I was like, I could have, I could do it myself, but I'm like, you g- I'm going to the salon. I might as well talk to people," and like I'm talking to everybody, and it feels like I'm getting my steps in.
[00:14:19] So think of s- like I, I call... there's this concept of exercise snacking, like doing little bit- bits of movements. There's something called social snacking. Do a little bit. Make social chitchat. That superficial conversation, I think a lot of us lost it during COVID, when these like, like, built-in layers of talking to people, strangers. That does have an impact, and it counts. So strangers like you more than you think. Your friends that haven't heard from you are…
[00:14:45] Lindsay Yeah, that was my next question. Yeah, so friends that you haven't connected with sometimes will make me feel apprehensive and insecure.
[00:14:54] Oh, yes. I feel so bad. I should've reached out; I did not, or it's been too long, or how do you recommend approaching that situation?
[00:15:02] Dr Sue: Yes. So look, I always say, that the, there, there is, there, are studies, so just know that you're not alone, first of all, if you feel weird. But some studies show that the person that you reached out to, even if time has passed, they are happier to hear from you than you realize.
[00:15:18] There, studies show that people are actually, like, happier to hear from you if, uh, even if a long time has passed, than you realize. So I think a lot of us feel like I dropped the ball;l, I never followed up, whenever, fill in the blank. I didn't follow up when their dad passed away. I didn't follow up when they got married, and too much time has passed; they may think this is strange.
[00:15:35] And a couple of things I would say, like in terms of re-entry points- yeah... you could literally just say, "Hey, it's been a while. I was thinking about you the other day." And literally I just got a DM from someone who said that to me, and I said, "That's so funny. I was thinking about you, too." And in my culture, South Asian culture, there's this idea that if you're bo- two people are thinking about each other at the same time, we have a saying; we say to the other person, "You're gonna have a long life."
[00:16:00] It's like it's considered auspicious- yeah... if two people are crossing lines or whatever. So, I didn't think it was weird. I happened to also be thinking about her randomly. She's from Greece, and I'm gonna be hoping to plan a trip again this summer, and I was thinking, "Oh, I should reach out to her."
[00:16:15] So one thing that I like is number one: just reach out and say, "I was thinking about you." And, another thing that I think about in terms of maintaining friendships, it's so important to make a mental note in your head of if, assuming you wanna keep in touch, 'cause if you don't care, that's a different story.
[00:16:31] But if you really wanna keep in tou- touch with this person and you've identified that- yeah... this person, like we really connect, we jive, we see things eye to eye, or my oh my God, they're so fun, or like I would like to have this person in my life. They have wonderful energy. Whatever it might be. Then think about the last conversation that you had, and think about what you talked about, what was the common ground.
[00:16:51] So, like maybe they were in the middle of a move at the time. Maybe they were trying to help their kid navigate the college scene. Maybe there was a wedding going on. Think about where their life is, and follow up and just say, "Hey, I was thinking about you. How did that end up going?" You have no idea how many brownie points that gets you, because most people, like, I hate to say this, Lindsay, I'm not trying to, I don't wanna sound like doomsday, but people just have too much going on in their life that they have; they don't even remember.
[00:17:21] They may not remember ever having seen you like six months ago if they ran into you. They won't remember having a conversation. They won't remember telling you. Like recently a friend had reached out and wished me happy birthday, and I was like, "I don't even remember telling you it's my birthday."
[00:17:36] And she somehow made a mental note and put it in her Apple calendar, and I was like, "Oh, my God."
[00:17:42] Lindsay: That's next level, Sue.
[00:17:44] Dr Sue: Yeah. And it's so small, 'cause as an adult, we really don't expect anything other than a tight-knit group of friends or family or people who grew up with us or somehow maybe they saw it on social media; they'll be like, "Oh," and then they start wishing you.
[00:17:57] But I think I tend to be, in terms of his public stuff, also kind of private, so I don't put a lot of myself out there. So if somebody knows something about me and r- and took the time to remember it, and especially as an adult when they have a million things going on in their life- yeah.
[00:18:13] It really says something. It, and in my mind, it kind of, I joke, I like, it, I think it elevates you, in terms of categories of friendship, because there are categories. I don't know if you have many mental categories or circles of tighter friends.
[00:18:26] Lindsay: You know where my... yes, I do, but do you know where my mind went? Yeah.
[00:18:29] I was, I was at work during a football day, and I have a, my co-anchor, a friend, has this level of quarterbacks. And, it w- which has nothing to do with what we're talking about, but he, it's like tiers, and he was going through who his tiers were, and I found that fascinating. But I think it absolutely actually does relate to friendship, and because that is leadership, and in sports, camaraderie can also win championships for real, and that is authentic friendship.
[00:18:57] Since I just went on this sidebar, I'm just gonna share, like, the beginning of the season when we watched the, the 49ers play the Rams and the Rams tanked week one, 'cause they traveled to Australia, we were chatting and some of the analysts with us were saying what they missed out on was the fact that the 49ers got over to Australia however many days early, and they were actually filling their days doing some bonding stuff.
[00:19:21] Not a ton, but whereas- the Rams used the theory of we're gonna keep our bodies on our clock. So I think maybe- I don't know. So that's a whole separate topic.
[00:19:31] Dr Sue: Interesting.
[00:19:31] Lindsay: Right? So interesting. It really is.
[00:19:33] Dr Sue: Yes, and it also reminds me of not only the power of connection, but also the power of relaxation.
[00:19:39] I think of whenever I had a big test or a big moment, or let's say, uh, preparing for a TV interview, I feel like I get my work done while you're at home, yeah. And then when you're there, just show up and be present. So if that's being in the green room, being open to talking to the other guests that are there, the producers, the anchors, whatever it is.
[00:20:00] Or be prepared for the test in advance, so the night before you're not cramming and you're just relaxing. So I wonder if that, just having fun, you did your training- yeah... and now you're just- yeah. Here to allow yourself to exhale and maybe a little bit of healthy distraction.
[00:20:15] So maybe the combination of all of those things.
[00:20:17] Lindsay: Yeah. And actually, and I'm glad that you brought that up, because being present, that is one of the tent poles, one of the pillars in practical optimism too. So yeah, are there any best practices besides what you just said?
[00:20:28] Dr Sue: Yes.
[00:20:29] Lindsay: Right? 'Cause when you say that, in my Lindsay mind, I'm like, I know that's the way to be.
[00:20:33] I know I feel good. I actually feel good in my body when I think about being prepped and then having that time. That is, for me, so much easier said than done, and I think just because I have one of these personalities, I want to get better at that.
[00:20:50] Dr Sue: Yes. So you know what's interesting, Lindsay, is that this idea of being present, how it ties into people, and those are two of the eight pillars of practical optimism, is that, think about when you're having a conversation with someone.
[00:21:02] I know that when I'm out with my mom's friends, we often have our phones on the table, like the dinner table. Yes. And... Or if I'm with friends that are physicians, and if they happen to be on call, and we just consider it normal, right, to have the phone on the table. But what studies show is the mere presence of a phone on a dinner table almost guarantees that the conversation will not go deep, because both parties are-
[00:21:26] Lindsay: Wow ...
[00:21:27] Dr Sue: Subconsciously anticipating an interruption. So there's this feeling of,f oh, my God, either let's hurry up, let's eat, let's get through this. I'm gonna get interrupted. I'm gonna have to go. And I feel like something as simple, right, as if you're able to put your phone just out of sight- wherever that might be- in your lap, in your bag, on the floor, someplace, on a chair, what you can do. Somebody may say, "Well, I'm a parent of young kids." Is there an on-call parent where, you know, sometimes when you put Do Not Disturb on your phone- yeah... you will get the calls of the people who are in your favorite list. So there's a way that if it's an emergency, somebody that's, if it's really important, they can call you. Otherwise, you can say, "Hey, I'm gonna be going to dinner now."
[00:22:08] And sometimes, I notice, Open-- I don't know if it's OpenTable or Resy, but I will get, "Hey," I can see that OpenTable will say, "You have a reservation. Do you wanna put your phone on to not disturb you during the two hours of your meal?" And I thought that was wild. That blew my mind. I'm like, " That's great
.[00:22:22] First of all, why do you know that I'm having dinner in... But okay, sure. Yes, I'll put it on so it does not disturb me. So just think about it: I'm more intentional and more aware of all of my relationships in life because I think that there's an, uh, this concept of pruning that happens. Okay. And it can happen at different stages and phases.
[00:22:40] I know that, one phase for me, I was putting together a list, like, when we were getting married, and I was like, okay, we had decided we wanted a small wedding, and we didn't want... 'Cause I wanted the opposite of that big, fat Indian wedding where you have 1,000 people and there's like a greeting line, and I know the bride and groom have never met 90% of the people there.
[00:23:00] And I'm like, "I don't want that." I w- Have you been to an Indian wedding, Lindsay?
[00:23:04] Lindsay: Am I w- have I been to one? Is that what y-
[00:23:06] Dr Sue: Yeah, an Indian wedding?
[00:23:07] Lindsay: No, I have friends, though, uh, very close friends- yeah... that are Indians that have talked about it with me.
[00:23:13] Dr Sue: Yes.
[00:23:13] Lindsay: So, but I can understand that because actually it doesn't sound that much different from certain, what's the word, cultural scenarios that even my parents have been in, being Polish. And so my mom talks about that. There was a certain expectation of things that would happen at theirs.
[00:23:28] Dr Sue: Yes, you would invite extended family and all sorts of relatives from both sides, and often family friends, and then you don't even know them or their kids- right 00:23:37] or whatever. And so, when I was creating that list, it really made me intentional about not only who my closest friends are but who I wanna take into the next phase of my life. And it just made me reflect, and it's hard. I think adult friendships are really hard because of time and distance and disappointment, right?
[00:23:58] There have been so many events in your life by a certain point where you felt, or political differences. I mean, there are so many reasons.
[00:24:05] Lindsay: Right, and values that change.
[00:24:06] Dr Sue: Yes. Yes, you change as people, in every decade. And what we take for granted is, w- in, in, in our teens and in our 20s, that will be the maximum amount of time that we will ever have spent with our friends, because you're in class together-
[00:24:19] Lindsay: Yeah
[00:24:20] Dr Sue: In high school, and then you're, you might be on a college campus, let's say, together in c- in college, if you had that experience. And then after that, you're in the workforce, and it takes a certain number of hours. Studies have shown that it takes anywhere from 50 to 80 hours to make a casual acquaintance.
[00:24:36] And then, if you want the next level of friendship.
[00:24:38] Lindsay: 50 to 80 hours?
[00:24:40] Dr Sue: Yeah, to become a casual acquaintance/friend. Like-
[00:24:43] Lindsay Real, meaning, so if I'm at a new job, and you mean- 50 hours around- Howard, who's my sharing a desk like that, it takes... That's wild.
[00:24:54] Dr Sue: Yeah. But there are things you can do to expedite that.
[00:24:57] Okay. But again, that's where the intention comes in. And then for adults, like to have a best friend, it's almost 100 to 160 hours, which I think when we were talking, Lindsay, with Craig, he's like, "Who has that kind of time?" And he's like, "Nobody," right?
[00:25:09] Lindsay: Right. And you made me think of four different things while you were talking, so I'm like, "Where am I?"
[00:25:16] One of the things is high school friends. So yes, I still have a group of high school girlfriends. We always joke about this because we're like, we do the annual Christmas party and the things, and- yes... we have the text chain, and it does feel like it's one of those relationships with each of them where it's just like we are sort of this collective group.
[00:25:37] And of course- you have individual friendships, but it does feel like when you get together, I just know you because I knew you when you were this tall, and I know your parents, and X, Y, Z." Also, I just... I don't know if other people feel this way, but I get so much anxiety from text chains. And I love them when I can really be a part of them.
[00:25:58] I've identified for myself that I j- I get significantly stressed when I have not had time to respond, and then I just feel like I've completely failed and dropped the ball. So I'mjust wondering what you think about that. And then I am, I'm curious about making friends as we get older- of course.
[00:26:16] And just, how do you recommend people doing that?
[00:26:20] Dr Sue: So first of all, I love that you've maintained this friendship with y- with your high school friends, 'cause that's really unique, I think, and beautiful. And it takes effort, right? There's g- there's always gonna be, like, a leader who puts whatever it is- right.
[00:26:33] like the text thread together. Some people are more active. And these are the same people who are, like, the president of the school PTO, right? They're the class presidents of their kids' classrooms. They have... They really are good at community building and maintaining. But it's like it's okay if you're not that person because not everybody wants to or has that strength, and other people may play different roles where someone gets the ball rolling, let's say, on a let's do a girls' get-together.
[00:27:00] And I love that you have ... It sounds like an annual standing, right?
[00:27:04] Lindsay: Well, yes, we do ... it'll be Christmas- But that, and, I mean, always though there is one, there are people that can't come. Oftentimes that's been me, just 'cause I live away. So it's yes, they ... and but that, and that, I mean, that's another not that we need to get too far into my weeds, but it's like that is another way that I feel okay, that can be stressful.
[00:27:24] Because- obviously, I don't want people to have to work around my schedule. But it's that if I miss it, then you do feel like, "Oh, I'm missing out." I'm ... And I don't know what the fear is. Is the fear that my friends are gonna say, "You're out"? No, they're not gonna do that. It's, but it is, I just think that's part of getting older and having friendships, and realizing too that...
[00:27:43] But you know what? As I'm saying this out loud, I do the same thing with friends around here. It's like I feel where I am now, like in, in my community, I really val- I love the friends that I've made. But yeah, it's easy to feel guilt,
[00:27:56] Dr Sue: Yes. Totally. Totally. And you know- I think a few things. One is, if you know that there's a time of year, right, that you're like, "I'm going to be visiting my hometown anyway," right?
[00:28:07] Or, "I'm covering a news story."Just writing- yeah ... to the group chat and say, "I am going to be available." And here's the thing, it's like you may only have literally 45 minutes before going to the airport, and you're like, "I will be at this coffee shop," or, "I'm getting ready for an interview, but I have 30 minutes here.
[00:28:25] Who wants to meet up for a quick coffee?" I just feel like it- it requires, and it's so hard, 'cause who has the time? But if the priority value is, "I don't know when I'm gonna see this person again," right? Like- sometimes I'm passing through a city, and I'm like, let's say if I'm giving a talk and I'm like, "I'm only going to be here," whatever it is, like San Diego or LA, that's, this is the only time this year, right?
[00:28:47] If it's ... And, who do I know here? So I actually have a friend whose idea I loved. She's a world traveler, does a lot of talking, huge on social media, and she says, "I made a, I've made a list of which friends live in which city," on an Excel spreadsheet. So she makes a point to reach out.
[00:29:03] Lindsay: She was the class president, PTO.
[00:29:05] Yeah. That's a,
[00:29:06] Dr Sue: Yeah. Yeah. And or she'll put it in her Instagram stories, and then people will reach out. I mean, granted, close friends, you know- right... Close friends story; maybe you don't want the whole world to know, but the close friends story. But I hear what you're saying about the anxiety of keeping up, and that's human.
[00:29:21] There is a fear. And when you say it out loud, you're like, "Oh, well, that's not gonna happen." And I'm glad you said it out loud, because if you're, let's say you're in therapy with a therapist, and, I can see myself in that situation to be like, "I feel bad I'm missing all, out of all my friends," whatever.
[00:29:37] I can see, I've been in therapy before and my therapist would say, "All right, let's look for evidence to suggest that." Have they stopped calling you? Have they kicked you off the group chat? How do they respond when you react, when you reach out? Yeah. And one thing I think is you may, you can even say, I'm so sorry.
[00:29:55] I am just catching up now," and that might be delayed. And if you, and if this is a group you're genuinely invested in, you may go back and look at all the messages or be like, as the kids say, "What's the TLDR?" and then ask them. I think even, s- people just want to be seen. So if you get the point, which is, somebody's- yes
[00:30:14] shared, and just said something, right? "Oh my God, how did that go? I'm so proud. "They just ran, whatever, a marathon, triathlon, whatever it is, celebrating that person in that moment can, re- I think, not replace, but it carries a lot of weight.
[00:30:33] Lindsay: It really, so you make me think about, years ago Oprah said, I cannot remember where I saw this, but she had this quote where she said on television, "People just wanna be seen, and they wanna know that what they have to say matters."
[00:30:47] And I kind of, I just think about that all the time 'cause I'm like, that's really what it is. 'Cause there are moments where, right, you're ... I'm like, "Well, do they like me?" And at the core of it, if we're just ... stripping it down, you have- yeah... talked so much about vulnerability.
[00:31:03] That day on the Today Show, you said that people want to show, right, they want to be vulnerable. Yes. Maybe you remind me what you were, what it was.
[00:31:13] Dr Sue: Yeah. Yeah, and I think you can deepen a friendship so much, and I've made close friends through this, iy, leveling the playing field.
[00:31:22] I think that as women we have these ideas in our mind that everyone else has their life together except me. We will always find someone who'll be like, "Well, they seem to," whether it's on social media or wherever it is, and you are this and you have accomplished this; therefore, your life is perfect.
[00:31:38] Yes. And I feel like just sharing something, there's this idea of common humanity. I struggle with whatever. Self-deprecating humor, I feel like he gets you so quickly. So when we talked about it, was it Howard that you're sharing the desk with? Like, how do you-
[00:31:53] Lindsay: Well, I made up a name, but yes.
[00:31:55] Dr Sue: Yeah. That's what,
[00:31:55] Lindsay: My…
[00:31:56] Dr Sue: Yeah, yeah. This, this imaginary friend. Where was it? There was an imaginary friend named Penelope in one of these TV shows I remember, growing up?
[00:32:03] Lindsay: Oh, that's funny. I feel,
[00:32:04] Dr Sue: Yeah. I'm trying to ... I have to think about it. Yeah. But, whatever, whoever this friend that you're, like, there's this concept of multiplex ties, which is- you know, if you have a friendship, let's say you work with someone, right? Try to find another point of context that you overlap with so that it can deepen the friendship. So if that work friend you now go to yoga with, right? That's a way to take it and then make it more personal.
[00:32:32] Or there was a mom at my kid's school who said, "Just you..." S- she, I had her family over for dinner. She went on a trip and ended up injuring herself. I texted her, "How are you doing? How is your leg?" She was like, "I'm better now, and I'm so excited. I'm gonna go to this workout class." And I was like, "Oh, that's awesome.
[00:32:49] Tell me where the class is." And then she was like, "Why don't you come with me?" And then I was like, "Great." And then after that, she's like, "Why don't you come with me? I'm having, uh, drinks with a..." I asked her, "Would you like to get coffee afterwards?" And she's like, "Actually, we have plans to go out for dinner or drinks with a group of friends."
[00:33:01] Yeah. "Why don't you come?" And so it's just such a natural evolution where this started being somebody just at my kid's school, right? And then we had dinners at each other's houses, and then it led to workout c- commonality. Now we work out together, and then it led to me meeting her new group of friends.
[00:33:17] So I just... It does take some effort, right? And at that moment, I was just asking genuinely about her leg. I didn't realize that there was going to be a workout class- yeah... which was good for me. And then, I talk about the four M's of ex- of mental health, and they're, it's movement, mastery, meaningful engagement, and mindfulness.
[00:33:36] And so going to a workout class or going to yoga class, I get my mindfulness, I get my mastery, I get my movement. And if I get to talk to her afterwards and we share something, it's meaningful engagement. So, you can get to check... And these four M's are sort of life's, I think of them as, prevention of mental health problems, anxiety, depression.
[00:33:56] If somebody said, I was in a situation where, in the height of the pandemic, it was April 2020, and Global Citizen was having a program with Lady Gaga, the UN, all three late-night hosts. It was like one world together.
[00:34:07] Lindsay: Wow. Yeah.
[00:34:07] Dr Sue: And they were like, they called me, and they're like, "We're having this program."
[00:34:10] I'm like, "That's wonderful." Elton John, Rolling Stones. I'm like, "Great, I'll be watching," one of those huge benefit concerts.
[00:34:15] Lindsay: Yeah.
[00:34:15] Dr Sue: And they're like, "No, we want you in it." And I was like, "I don't sing, and I don't dance. And nor do you wanna see that. So, what do you want me to do?" And they're like, "No, we want you to be, like, the mental health voice."
[00:34:26] And then they're like, "We want you to give them tips and talk about resilience and hope and fear," 'cause it was, New York City was about to reach its height, uh, of the death toll. And I was like, "How do I, how much time do I have?" I'm like, "Do I have an hour?" And they're like, "No, you have 59 seconds."
[00:34:43] And I was like, "59 seconds, what can I share?" And they're like, "Kerry Washington is gonna introduce you, and then you have this tight 59 seconds, and then we're going to the next act," or whatever. So I thought hard: what are four things that people should be doing every single day to maintain their mental health?
[00:34:57] Yeah. And I was thinking, "What am I telling people?" And that's where the four M's of mental health were sort of put in these terms:s things that I've been doing, things my 90-year-old dad, who walks five miles a day, wakes up to go to the beach for sunrise-
[00:35:09] Lindsay: Yes ...
[00:35:09] Dr Sue: For sunset, works out, and has these friendships that have lasted over six decades from all around the world, like people that he did training with in medical school.
[00:35:18] He's a retired psychiatrist, and he's taken us on all these amazing, glorious trips where we have been seeing his friends that he trained with, that he's kept in touch with through a WhatsApp group. Wow. So meaningful engagement is, for me, one of the four basic things, four basic habits that you should have.
[00:35:36] But you have to be intentional about it.
[00:35:37] Lindsay: The way that you describe him, by the way, in your book, in Practical Optimism, I took note of that and thought that, okay, this is a really interesting perspective on how he does that, his best practices. Yeah. I thought that was really fascinating.
[00:35:53] Dr Sue: When you- he will make friends everywhere we go. And sometimes, my kids, if they're with him, they're like, "Oh, my God, why?" Oh, no. They get so embarrassed, but it's kind of- Oh, really? Yeah. And it's kind of rubbed off on me, and then they're like, "Mom, you're such a stalker.
[00:36:06] Why do you have to talk to people everywhere you go?" I'm like, "I can't help it."
[00:36:09] Lindsay: But yeah, you're, but you're making connections, and that's great advice. And I wanna ask you a couple of things. There are a couple of people who wrote in who have questions that I think are fantastic. Before I get into those, my sister-in-law,-I hope she's not mad at me for sharing this- Amy is amazing, and we talk about this a lot because my brother's in the Coast Guard.
[00:36:27] And so they are moving, if not every two years, then every several years. And so I watch her make friendships, and I sort of marvel at this. But that brought up the conversation of, okay, so if you are in a place, you're new, what have you, what do you recommend in terms of trying to make new friendships there?
[00:36:45] How do you put yourself out there? And maybe you're not, maybe you are, whether or not you are an outgoing person or not.
[00:36:53] Dr Sue: So I think, there, when we started having... I'm thinking, if you look at architecture post-World War II, there were homes and, or even Victorian homes- yeah[00:37:04] throughout the ages, homes had been built with these porches, and a front porch. And to me, it was like that is where people would sit, and they would drink their lemonade, and they would watch the people go by. They would make conversation. You would get invited to the porch, and we don't have that as much these days, right?
[00:37:23] Yeah. There might be the front lawn, but people are, like, hiding, and they want hedges, and they want privacy. But what gets lost in that? So I see people having block parties. So they'll say, okay, like getting a bunch of neighbors. So when you're moving somewhere new, the, it, gone are the days where your neighbor's gonna bake a pie and give it to you.
[00:37:42] That might happen, but chances are it might not happen. So if you were to say to yourself, "What would it cost me to make the first move?" And the likelihood- think of it as a numbers game. You're not going to connect. You're not going to match with everyone, and you don't need to, so that's really important.
[00:37:57] So be prepared for some amount of rejection, but it's not really rejecting you. It's like rejecting the opportunity to get to know you. Okay. And that could be from any nu- number of reasons. Their life is already full, they're busy, or they don't understand what's going on in that interaction. So what I always-
[00:38:10] Lindsay: So don't take it personally, basically.
[00:38:12] Dr Sue: Don't... Yeah, don't take it personally. They're busy. You've probably been in a situation like that before. And I would say: show up at the same places at the same times. So if you're lucky enough to be a digital nomad, and have a computer, and can go to a coffee shop at 9:00 AM, show up there every day.
[00:38:26] Make conversation with the person sitting next to you. Be like, "Hey, I was just curious, do you know if there are good lunch places near this cafe, or do you... Are there other coffee shops that you like?" Small talk with random people. It's so fun. That's what you started with.
[00:38:39] Lindsay: Yeah.
[00:38:41] Dr Sue: It's so foreign to people, but it's like that, it
[00:38:44] If you have genuine curiosity, it's not like you're some weirdo. It's an appropriate question. "I'm new to the neighborhood. I'm just curious. I've been coming to this coffee shop, but I don't know a lot of good ones. Is there anything else you would recommend?" The other thing is, I'm big on look at what workout- Okay
[00:38:59] Is there a running club? Is there yoga? Is there Pilates? Small group training, going to the same thing and asking the same questions. "I'm new here. Is there a fitness class that you like? Is there a yoga class?" Book clubs. There's an app called Nextdoor where people are like, "I'm looking for a tennis partner or pickleball," or "Who can I play with?"
[00:39:17] You can put yourself out there and say, "What is going on? What do you recommend?" Mahjong is huge.
[00:39:23] Lindsay: Oh, yes. Sometimes
[00:39:24] Dr Sue: They'll... Do you play? I haven't, I don't play, but-
[00:39:26] Lindsay: No ...
[00:39:26] Dr Sue: Everybody knows.
[00:39:27] Lindsay: I need to learn. I mean, I have probably three different friends that I've heard teach it, and so it's just- yeah... a matter of figuring out, right?
[00:39:33] But yes. Yes. I've heard, and it seems really fun.
[00:39:36] Dr Sue: Tell Amy Mahjong and pickleball are here; it's at.
[00:39:40] Lindsay: Right. I ... Okay. So but yes, the workout, just being in the same place, not being scared of the rejection, and not taking it as rejection.
[00:39:49] Dr Sue: Yes. And joining, like for some people, it is easier to join a club or a group that's already f- freestanding.
[00:39:56] Yeah, a walking group. There's a lot of walking groups, running groups, painting, art, and wine. It's ... These are meant for people, for individuals to show up, right? There's a lot of stuff in the city that's in big cities about; they're trying to create bookstores again and bringing in authors to speak.
[00:40:14] So a lot of times somebody will ask a question. Let's say there's a book signing, and this ... Literally fill it in. Fill in the blank with anything it could be, right? It could be a wine tasting. It could be a cooking class. People will ask questions. And just say, you can say, "Oh, my God, I loved your question.
[00:40:29] How interesting. Have you ever taken this cooking class? I'm so new to this." And somebody will be like, "Oh, my God, yes, I've been coming here for years. This is the teacher. When is the next time you're going to a class?" So I just feel like the more you talk to yourself, the more you show up to things, the more you put yourself out there, the more it naturally lends itself.
[00:40:48] I was talking to a woman. I had a get-together, and there were a bunch of women that did not know each other, and one was talking about Mahjong, and she's like, "Oh, my God, I know a great teacher, and I already have three friends going, and I know that they have space for more.
[00:41:01] Would you like to go?" So imagine you're new in town. You'd be like, "Thank you."
[00:41:05] Lindsay: Totally. Well, so someone was asking, what if you're shy? What if- yeah. you're just not the person that,t in any shape or form, rm wants to be like, "Hey,"what then?
[00:41:17] Dr Sue: I think I- I'll be honest, I was shy as a kid, and I remember, I had friends and I was open with my friends, but I would go to a lot of meetings.
[00:41:25] My parents were very active in the community. My dad's a psychiatrist, and he had started a lot of different psychiatric organizations. My mom was in education. She has a PhD, and they would speak at conferences, and they would drag me all over the country, and I was always spending my weekends, like, sitting with a group of the kids of the other speakers- yeah.
[00:41:42] and none of us knew each other, and we're all mortified. And I ... My dad would be like, "Oh, how old are you? You're 12? She's 12," and then "Go be friends." I'm like, "That's not how it works." And then I was like, "You know what? I need to get over my shyness so I can talk to randos." And that's what I did.
[00:41:56] I got this book. It was so funny. There was a mall that, like, where I would go with my girlfriends and I ... That's how the whole idea of me wanting to write a self-help book came, because I was looking at these shelves and I was like, there was a book called Conquering Shyness. And Lindsay, I have no idea what the hell was in the book, but I was like, "I am going to conquer my shyness today."
[00:42:14] And I'm like, think of like a seventh-grader, using- yes... her babysitting money, shopping, like buying cool clothes, at the, all, and then deciding that I'm gonna overcome this. 'Cause I was like, this is gonna be the last time my parents introduce me to someone just because we're the same age."
[00:42:28] And that book just made me realize that you can adopt a very different mindset, and I was like, one day I was like, "I want to give back." This book or ... and the idea of an author passing ideas that can change your life, I want to be that for somebody else, to get them out of their shell, to overcome whatever anxiety or fear that they have.
[00:42:48] Lindsay: I love that, and that was the baby seed for you, and then we didn't even have time to get into it in the beginning, but really this work for you was sparked by 9/11.
[00:43:00] Dr Sue: Yeah. Of, of ... it's like in the darkest of times, on 9/11, I was a medical student working at a New York City hospital, and I was in a patient's room, and I saw the first plane crash into the tower, and I was
[00:43:14] None of us knew what was going on,n and it was scary, but we didn't have background contacts, and all I remember is, soon after, on the overhead announcement they were saying, " Discharge, discharge." "Anybody healthy enough to go home, create space for, for there to be room," for patients.
[00:43:34] But nobody came, unfortunately.
[00:43:36] Lindsay: When you started working and really trying to make a difference to the people that were dealing with all the PTSD and everything and the aftermath, what did you learn? What was the thing no one tells you that came from that experience?
[00:43:50] Dr Sue: Yeah. So when I was working with 9/11 survivors, I was struck by a group of patients who never met criteria for anxiety, depression, post-traumatic stress disorder.
[00:44:02] They were there for physical medical monitoring of asthma, GI problems, and cancer, and I was wondering why they never met criteria. They experienced the same horrific tragedies and losses. Many of them were trampled over; they got stuck in the dust cloud. They lost family members and friends.
[00:44:21] They went through the... Two people can go through the same horrific tragedy, and yet one person comes out not only, I don't wanna say unscathed because they- they all went through loss and grief, but somehow they came out on the other end a little bit differently. To the point where some of these patients were serving as community activists and leaders and helping get resources and bringing some of these other patients who were more debilitated to their doctor's appointments.
[00:44:50] So a lot of our patients in my mental health program who ha- who were suffering, they said, "I don't wanna leave the house. There will be a- there could be another attack tomorrow." They had agoraphobia, fear of public places, fear of transportation. So I started studying, even just talking to patients in the hallways and saying, "I wanna understand you.
[00:45:08] Tell me a little bit about you. How are you able to do this?" And I remember this one patient who spoke perfect English, but I requested, whenever I saw her, "Please practice Spanish with me," and her name was Theresa.
[00:45:20] Lindsay: Wow.
[00:45:20] Dr Sue: And she said to me, I said, "Qual is su, secreto?
[00:45:27] What's your secret?" And she said, "My purpose." And that is the first pillar, is this idea, to me, your purpose is, your soul's way of engaging with the world in the way that only you know how. With our own talents, interests, and hobbies aligned in service to other people. So that was sort of the secret.
[00:45:51] I was like, "Who are these people?" Then I realized that they have this natural-born optimism, but what I learned later on is that optimism is something you're born with or not, and some people said, "Well, if I'm not born with it, what can I do?" And I learned through these survivors that optimism can be practiced, and I was like...
[00:46:09] Then I realized there are these qualities. I made them into pillars that we can all learn from.
[00:46:14] Lindsay: Yes. I love that. Thank you for sharing that. A couple of questions for you from people who have weighed in and really would love your advice on friendship. Jenny wrote in and said, "How do you choose to be childless friends?"
[00:46:29] I loved that question
[00:46:32] Dr Sue: Great. And so I'm assuming Jenny might be choosing
[00:46:35] Lindsay to be childless?
[00:46:36] Dr Sue: Childless.
[00:46:36] Lindsay: Yeah. Yes, I believe so.
[00:46:38] Dr Sue: Yeah, so, I saw this article the other day; I think it was Vox Media, and it said we all need to be partying more often. And I was just thinking, they were talking about just this, this collective effer- effervescence, like this idea that came about where you're celebrating.
[00:46:53] And I think after the Knicks won, people were just, in the streets- yes... and so happy to be, for one time, something that could bring people from any different political view, background, all together. And there is something about when I think about- I s- I spent the '90s and 2000s in New York City growing up as a young person.
[00:47:15] There's a shared sense of friendship and com- camaraderie before having kids, and I think that gets lost for a lot of parents when you're in this ... I talk about it, and it's the first pillar of purpose, not just purpose like doing good in the world, but also having some pleasure, right? I say, it's like your pleasure basket and your drudgery drawer.
[00:47:33] And ask yourself, "Do I have more obligations in my life than I have lightness and fun?" So I would say to Jenny, just think about it, it could be childless friends- Yeah ... but it could be anyone that seeks joy, and pleasure, and can prioritize it. So I have a friend who's a mom, but any time she's back in town, she's moved, she'll be like, "When are we going to get, want to do something fun?
[00:47:52] Are we listening to music? Are we going to a salsa dance class?" She brings out-.
[00:47:56] Lindsay: Oh, I love salsa dance class ...
[00:47:56] Dr Sue: Yeah, she brings out that fun, childlike spirit in me.
[00:48:00] Lindsay: All right. Will a new friend for a retired senior replace longtime besties you've known most of your life? I love this question, and I don't have a name, but thank you.
[00:48:12] Dr Sue: Yes. Yes, absolutely. And I feel like my dad is living proof. Like- oh... he has made hundreds of new friends over the last three decades, like everywhere we go. And, I just, I'm like, I'm ... People are taken by him because he's showing up expecting nothing in return, and I think that he has activity partners, like people he will go see a play with, people he will go to the library for a book talk with.
[00:48:38] So v- I talk about this in the book that there are different layers of friendships, and accepting and acknowledging, not everyone is going to be your 3:00 AM, home call in the middle of the night. Some people are better with, 3:00 PM, let's do something fun together.
[00:48:55] And they don't have to be your soulmates, friendship-wise.
[00:49:00] Lindsay: Love that. Last one, "Men and women do friendships differently. Society needs to recognize that." That's what someone shared when they wrote to me on Instagram. But that's right, and the- I think that's very fair to point out that men have very different friendships; women have different friendships.
[00:49:17] Anything that you think is interesting for us to know, or the thing that no one tells you about that and what that means?
[00:49:24] Dr Sue: I think it's very important, and I have a lot of male patients who are navigating friendships, and they're all in different stages. I have patients, male patients in their 20s up to, let's say, every decade of life.
[00:49:38] And I often see that they outsource their companionship, if you will. itdon't know if outsource is the correct word, but they rely upon their partner for it. And if they don't have a partner, if they're not dating somebody, or if they're widowed or they're divorced, they're extremely lonely, and they're immediately looking to fill the gap with another partner.
[00:49:59] And sometimes that person could be right for them, and sometimes it's literally the first person that they found- yeah... because they cannot sit with that profound loneliness. And they're not always making the best or the most clear-headed relationship decisions, I feel like, as a result of it. And I think that I, And they would get, let's say, get into relationships where they're like, "This person is not good to me," or, "This is not a good fit." And I would say, "Let's understand the underlying motivations. What made you so quickly turn to romantic partnerships rather than invest in your friendships?" So I think that for guys, it can be weird.
[00:50:30] There's a lot of strange and unnecessary homophobia. "They're gonna think I'm this," or, "They're gonna think... They're gonna misread my intentions." And so I think sometimes for guys, group hats can be non-threatening. Having stuff around sports or activities can be non-threatening. But honestly, if you're able to get over what you think society is telling you, just m- just do it.
[00:50:54] It's so cliched. There is a, there's a dad friend in our community who's always texting my husband, "Let's go to coffee," and he doesn't care. He doesn't care what my, what me and my husband think. And then, they're always joking. They're like, "Sue, do you have any new coffee place recommendations?"
[00:51:07] And I'm like, "This is for your bro date?" Like, sending them pictures of new coffee shops. But I think it's so sweet that somebody has their act together enough to initiate friendship, because I don't see that a lot in guys.
[00:51:20] Lindsay: That's really interesting advice. And then, and I also love, we chatted about this before, but just kept it moving.
[00:51:25] Yes. And if there's something that you and your spouse or a partner want to chat about, movement is a good idea. Yes. I have a question. Why... Tell me the story behind this art. I love it. Obviously, there's a purpose.
[00:51:39] Dr Sue: Yes. Thank you for asking. So you know that whole idea of, m- when g- life gives you lemons, make lemonade.
[00:51:45] And this is where the practical part comes in. It's not just-
[00:51:49] Lindsay: Oh ...
[00:51:50] Dr Sue: I'm a big fan of going not just in my practice from dysfunctional to functional, but functional to optimal. And so I was like- Yeah ... the practical part is you have a lemon, you wanna drink it. I want you to get the nutrients out of it.
[00:52:03] Just stick the straw. Forget about perfection. And then when you add the umbrella, it adds the festivity; we're not just going to make it functional. I want you to have your best life, your celebratory life. And the pink is the festive fun, the mocktail. Let's say you've given up drinking, but that doesn't mean you have to give up joy, right?
[00:52:21] Yeah. So find joy. The practicality is the straw. Lemons are a hardship in life. And then the red raspberry umbrella is the festivity. So turn your hardships into lessons to be learned. And then at some point, don't forget to make time for your joy.
[00:52:42] Lindsay: What is the one thing you can't live without?
[00:52:46] Dr Sue: Friendships. My girlfriends, I would say.
[00:52:49] Lindsay: You have a bunch of different groups of friendships?
[00:52:52] Dr Sue: Yeah, from different parts of life. But I feel like at the core, two or three people are ... I would say, when I think of friendships, there's activity partners, and then there's one or two soulmates that you feel like just being in their presence, they accept you for who you are, don't expect anything from you, and I think that's just one of the most treasured things.
[00:53:14] And, I would zoom out and say beyond friendships, the word relationships is important to me because it is the verb to relate, and I think that it's important to learn how to relate to other people. And not everyone is going to be able to meet your needs- yeah... to see you for who you are, to celebrate you for who you are.
[00:53:32] I think we didn't get to talk about this, but there was a great conversation that I really enjoyed between Oprah and Gayle King, where they're talking about jealousy, and that it's really hard to have friendships, right? Like, when there is a hint of that. And I think that a lot of women, as they continue to succeed in life and good things are happening, or through social media, unfortunately, others.
[00:53:53] You know, there can be these feelings of jealousy. And I talk about it in my book. When we're scrolling on social media, envy. Yeah. Why do we have this? It's because we perceive that there's this life to be had out there, right? So zoom out when you start to have those feelings for your friendships and be like, "Why are they ahead?
[00:54:07] Why am I not there?" But I think that there's disappointment often, but if you can see the best, and that's like a line that I learned from my dad, it's being able to see the best in people. So w- it's fun- it's funny, sometimes we will both t- my dad and I will both be talking to somebody that we know is not, maybe not the nicest or
[00:54:27] and he has just tr- decided to turn that off. He's like, "I'm not obtuse. I'm aware of what you said. I see it." Yeah. "But I choose not to relate to it." So that is something that you can decide for yourself. What, how do you wanna relate to people? In what way do you want to show up, and what do you wanna take from it?
[00:54:43] And you can choose to turn things on and off as needed.
[00:54:46] Lindsay: That's interesting. That was actually the message in church this weekend. It was about envy. And I think that at the core, it's one of those pillars that is exactly what you're talking about. But I do think that's a hard thing-
[00:54:58] Dr Sue: Yes ...
[00:54:59] Lindsay: When you say zoom out.
[00:55:00] That's great advice, but it's like really, you have to just, you have to just shut that off and realize- yes... that everyone's life and story is unique and their own and ... Right?
[00:55:11] Dr Sue: Yes. I love that.
[00:55:13] Lindsay: Sue Varma, Dr. Sue Varma, it's so great talking to you. Thank you so much for your time, and thank you ... I can't wait to talk to you again.
[00:55:21] Dr Sue: Thank you.
[00:55:22] Lindsay: And good luck with it. Absolutely. I know this book; it has been helping people for a bit, but good luck with it moving on down the road. There is so much great wisdom in there, so I can't wait for people- thank you... to check it out.
[00:55:34] Dr Sue: Thank you so much for having me. What a great conversation.Thank you.
[00:55:38] Lindsay: I also wanna share that it was just the tip of the iceberg with Sue, because since my first time meeting her and talking about friendship, I have seen her in conversations with people about decision-making, all the things. She's working on a new project down the road that is a completely different departure, but her expert advice and the work that she does as a psychiatrist just so informs all these things that she just shared with us.
[00:56:03] So a massive thanks to Sue. I hope that you guys took some information, and hey, I would love to keep this conversation going. So, let us know. Go to our show notes, go to the website, wherever you follow our podcast, Things No One Tells You, and let us know what your thoughts were. Also, while you're there, don't forget to like, subscribe, rate, review, and share an episode with a friend.
[00:56:25] And, as always, we appreciate you for being here. Thank you for being a part of this community, and for all of us here at TNOTY, we will see you next time.