Living Life at Full Speed with Racecar Driver Katherine Legge: Ep 53
Highlights from the episode:
The logistics behind taking on two legendary races in one day
The crash that made Katherine wonder if she’d lost her nerve
What getting uncomfortable has taught her about creating opportunity
The moments that still make her think, “I have the coolest job in the world”
Podcast show notes:
What does it take to stay completely focused when you’re driving more than 200 miles an hour?
For Katherine Legge, the surprising answer is that the race car may be one of the places where her mind feels clearest. In this episode, Katherine takes us inside the physical and mental demands of professional racing.
I had a chance to talk with Katherine shortly before she became the first woman to attempt racing in the Indianapolis 500 and Coca-Cola 600 on the same day, joining an incredibly small group of drivers to attempt “the Double.” We talk about the differences between NASCAR and IndyCar, the role of women in motor sports, and the way that the e.l.f. sponsorship has changed things for her as a driver.
What You’ll Discover:
Why “Why not?” became Katherine’s answer to taking the risk (07:02)
What racing two completely different cars actually feels like (09:23)
Why speed brings Katherine an unusual sense of focus (14:27)
How one bold career move put her on the motorsports map (27:02)
How Katherine hopes to open doors for the next generation (43:58)
There’s plenty here for racing fans, but Katherine’s perspective reaches well beyond motorsports. It’s about preparation, trusting yourself under pressure, and saying yes when the opportunity in front of you may never come again.
Katherine’s career is a reminder that progress rarely happens in a straight line. There are great moments, awful moments and a lot of getting back up in between. Subscribe to Things No One Tells You for more conversations like this, and if you’re enjoying the show, a rating or review helps others find it, too.
Connect with Katherine Legge
Follow Katherine on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/katherineracing
Be sure to subscribe to Things No One Tells You—Lindsay’s podcast all about the real, unfiltered conversations we don’t always have but should. From big names to everyday voices, each episode dives into the moments that shape us. Listen wherever you get your podcasts!
Follow along with Lindsay below!
Full Transcript
[00:00:00] Lindsay: How do you sum up what it's been like from then to now, to this point? Why are you laughing?
[00:00:08] Katherine: It's been such a rollercoaster, like great times, terrible times, great times. Yeah. Like, it's life. It's just, it's- It knocks you down, you get back up, and then you have other great moments, and you have other awful moments, and that's what living's all about
[00:00:25] Lindsay: Hey, guys.
[00:00:25] Welcome to this episode of Things No One Tells You. This one is really exciting because we are talking about women in sports, which I love. My episode today is with IndyCar driver and NASCAR driver Katherine Legge. Katherine is a trailblazer, but she is very quick to give credit and pay respect to those that have come before her in motorsports, and there have not been that many, but there certainly have been those that have helped pave the way.
[00:00:56] So Katherine, I came to know a couple of years ago, when she was racing in the Indy 500. This year, she was doing it again, and we connected because Katherine is also sponsored by e.l.f. Cosmetics. So we were brought together through one of those partnerships. And what I really love about Katherine is that she is no BS, but she's also a girl's girl, and she is such a talented driver.
[00:01:22] Everything she does requires an exorbitant amount of talent, but also, like, mental toughness. And here's what. Coming into this year, Katherine embarked on doing the double, which meant that she was going to race the Indy 500, which is the biggest race in IndyCar, and then she was going to that very day hop in a helicopter to get to a plane to get to another helicopter to get to the racetrack in Charlotte, North Carolina, to race in the Coca-Cola 600.
[00:01:51] She accomplished starting both of those events in the same day, so she became the sixth person to ever do that, the first woman. Her day ended short at Indy because she got caught up in a wreck, and she finished 33rd. She still went through the paces and got the start in Charlotte, putting in a valiant effort.
[00:02:12] Ended up finishing 31st in Charlotte. But Katherine talks in this episode not just about that day, but just about her journey as a race car driver. And she really has a bright future ahead. She's super versatile in the world of motorsports, meaning, like, she can really drive so many different types of things.
[00:02:31] But she also really has a clear vision on what she thinks mentorship should be for women that wanna get into this sport, and I think that's awesome. I love her story about how she really pushed it when it looked like it was her last chance to try to make it in this sport. So here's Katherine Legge.
[00:02:52] She's amazing. I hope you guys love this episode as much as I loved recording it. So what goes through your mind at this point when you have the Indy 500 right around the corner? What's it like?
[00:03:04] Katherine: I think we've been so busy that I haven't had time to dwell on anything too much. I hope that I've had enough time to think about all the stuff you need to think about to be prepared.
[00:03:14] Right? Like car setup, watching old races, looking at the rules, because I'm not full-time in any series. So I have to refresh my memory and think about all of the different minutiae that go along with just driving the race car. Driving the race car part is easy. So I hope I've thought of all the things that I need to think of.
[00:03:35] I'm interested in all of the organizations that surround this, right? I started by saying, "I don't need to know. Just tell me where to be." And then- okay... very quickly was like, "So how are we getting there? And what are we doing here?" And so now they're briefing me on, you know, where the golf cart goes from, where the car is gonna pick us up, where the helicopter leaves from, what time we're doing this.
[00:04:02] And so being me, I always stick my two cents in. But,
[00:04:07] Lindsay: So you let them do it-
[00:04:08] Katherine: I let them ...
[00:04:09] Lindsay: But then you also don't.
[00:04:12] Katherine: I do, but I don't. I love logistics. Like, it fascinates me, like putting-
[00:04:17] Lindsay: That's why you're good at what you do.
[00:04:18] Katherine: Yeah.
[00:04:19] Lindsay: Right?
[00:04:19] Katherine: It's like a puzzle. So I'm just interested in it, and I think it's a really fun project, right, to be part of.
[00:04:27] Like, just putting it all together is like The Amazing Race of racing.
[00:04:34] Lindsay: To make it all be able to happen.
[00:04:36] Katherine: To make it. And that is if nothing goes wrong. If there's no rain, there are no delays, there are no car issues, there are no plane issues, there's no... Like, everything has to be on time to be able to land, do driver intros, and then get in the car.
[00:04:53] Lindsay: So, and you're talking about the double.
[00:04:56] Katherine: Yeah.
[00:04:56] Lindsay: You are now the sixth driver to attempt the double, meaning you're gonna race in the Indy 500. And then you're going to get on that air travel and go to the Coca-Cola 600. What is most exciting about that to you?
[00:05:12] Katherine: I think just all of it and being able to say that I've done it, to the best of my ability.
[00:05:19] I hope that means completing both races. To be able to say you've done Indy, this is my fifth time doing the Indy 500. To be able to get the opportunity to do Indy is no mean feat in itself, right? Like, it doesn't escape me how lucky I am and how blessed I am to be able to say I'm doing the Indy 500, first and foremost.
[00:05:43] Not many people get the opportunity to do that. I mean, in the whole grand scheme of things, what's it been? Around 100 and something years. A lot of the same drivers do it again every year. There's probably not been more than a couple of hundred drivers that have attempted to do it. So I'll have to look at that stat actually, 'cause I'm not sure what it is.
[00:06:01] I'm gonna go with, like, 300, 350, something like that. Yeah. In the world. Yes. Right?
[00:06:06] Lindsay: Yes.
[00:06:06] Katherine: I don't know. We'll Google it later. But then,t o be able to do Charlotte, same deal. To be able to do both on the same day, I'll be the sixth person to ever attempt it. Only one person's completed it all, and that's Tony Stewart.
[00:06:20] Lindsay: Tony Stewart. Yep. 2001.
[00:06:22] Katherine: Was it 2001? Oof.
[00:06:25] Lindsay: Have you talked to him?
[00:06:26] Katherine: 25 years ago. No. I read a couple of articles that he had been quoted in about it, and I reached out, and he's gonna be in Indy doing TV stuff. So I'm gonna go and be like, "Excuse me, Mr. Stewart." I spoke to Kyle, though.
[00:06:42] Kyle and his team have been wonderful. I'm trying to kind of follow in his footsteps, and their PR and management team have been helping me, so I'm very grateful that he has got prior experience and has been so gracious with it.
[00:06:58] Lindsay: Why was it so important to you to do it?
[00:07:02] Katherine: That is a question that I've been asked a few times.
[00:07:05] And I keep going back to it, I don't have a good answer for it. I just think, "Why not?" Like, is it one of the greatest feats in racing? Yeah, it's really cool, right? Like, it's a challenge on so many different fronts, physically, mentally, logistically. It's a test of the equipment, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:07:25] But what if I never got the opportunity again? What if this was the only time that I could do it, and I said no? So I say, "Why not?" I also think that there aren't many people who are cross-disciplined, right? Like, there's only a handful of us, I think, that are, I don't know, licensed, for want of a better term, to do both series.
[00:07:47] Lindsay: So versatile,
[00:07:47] Katherine: Yeah. So you've got, like, Conor Daly, Kyle, obviously, AJ Allmendinger. Danica was doing both. So there aren't many. There's, like, a sprinkling of people who could actually do it, and then there are only a few of us crazy enough to actually attempt it.
[00:08:05] Lindsay: So what is it like getting ready for that?
[00:08:08] What is the most important thing to you at this point?
[00:08:12] Katherine: I think it's just organized. You know, just having calm peace of mind knowing that everything's handled and taken care of, which means organized, and that you've got lists. We've got so many different things that we need to take care of, that I feel like as long as we're ticking them off, it's okay.
[00:08:30] I get to sit with my engineers. I get to watch old races. I get to focus on the driving element of it, because I know that side of things is being taken care of. So I think that's important, because as a driver, you have to be prepared to do your job and not get caught up in doing other people's jobs, and just, just worry about what springs you want and how many clicks of weight jack are you gonna put in, and what the best deploy strategy is on the hybrid, which I need to speak to my engineer about, by the way.
[00:09:03] Lindsay: Wish you were multitasking.
[00:09:04] Katherine: Yeah.
[00:09:05] Lindsay: Do you- can you put into comparison what it is like for people that will never be inside of a race car, since you know so closely what it's like in both worlds, to go from an IndyCar in it, in the race, to a stock car?
[00:09:23] Katherine: Oh, it's interesting. So in an IndyCar, it's like being in the cockpit of a fighter jet, right?
[00:09:29] You've got downforce. It's heavy. It's fast. It's direct. It's- It's abusive in a different way. Like, you are laying down. It's very much like... I don't know how to describe it. It's very refined. It's very, like, a solid feeling.
[00:09:55] Lots of downforce, lots of G-force, lots of timing and pre-planning 'cause it's really fast, and you can't get up.
[00:10:02] Because of the downforce, you can't get right up behind somebody without losing air, and the car washes out. So you have to time runs on people to overtake them, and it's more you have to think about strategy a little bit more. You've got a deploy on the hybrid that you can use to try and get a little bit of extra power.
[00:10:28] So it's very different to jumping in the stock car, which is big and heavy and burly, and you sit up, and you've got a big steering wheel, and the center of pressure is much higher and moving around. It's also 130 degrees plus there. So it's just a... It's a different sport, basically, I think.
[00:10:44] Lindsay: And to do 1,100 miles, you've gotta be physically, like, in the best shape possible.
[00:10:52] Yeah.
[00:10:52] Katherine: Right? Like- I think so. I spoke to Kyle about it, and he said that physically he didn't struggle with it at all. So I think as long as I've got the nutrition dialed in, I've got electrolytes, I'm gonna get an IV on the plane. I... We're thinking about eating baby food during the 600-mile race 'cause it's the only thing that you can, like, squeeze into your mouth.
[00:11:15] 'Cause I'm just so worried I'm gonna be hungry. Right. That's a lot. Like, I was racing at Watkins Glen last weekend. Not this past weekend, the one before, and I wore my fitness tracker, and I was looking at the average heart rate over the three hours was, like- yeah... 160, 165, and the amount of calories you eat.
[00:11:34] So I'm gonna probably have around a 4,000 to 5,000 calorie deficit day.
[00:11:40] Lindsay: Golly, right?
[00:11:41] Katherine: Right, which is kinda crazy to think about. But if you think about it like that, and then all the fluids that you lose. So you have to make sure you're hydrated, and you've got all the electrolytes and everything else. So we'll see.
[00:11:53] I mean, hopefully I make it to the end of the race, and I think that wasn't too bad, or maybe the last couple of hours I'll be regretting my life's choices. Who knows?
[00:12:05] Lindsay: But I like that. So your strategy is you will get an IV on the plane from Indianapolis to Charlotte. Yeah. And then you will get down, and it's just back to business once you hit the ground there.
[00:12:15] Katherine: Yeah.
[00:12:16] Lindsay: Back to Indy, what is it like driving around that racetrack when you are starting the Indy 500 and just understanding that it is a different type of experience with a lot of tradition that goes on?
[00:12:32] Katherine: Pageantry.
[00:12:35] It's unique. It's obviously the largest sporting event in the world in terms of attendance.
[00:12:41] When you drive in underneath the tunnel, you feel the energy from all the people, and just the, I don't know, it's, like, it's indescribable. It's like people talk about going to Joshua Tree or different places, right? Yeah. Like, it is the Mecca of racing in North America. So it has a vibe that you cannot, I don't know.
[00:13:08] It's just the h- the people and the having fun, and it's like I- it's almost palpable. And so when you get ready to start the race, you've got all the pageantry. You've got the flyover. You've got Back Home Again Indiana being sung, and the, and then somebody super famous like Kelly Clarkson sings the anthem.
[00:13:24] And, you're standing there in front of 300,000 people, and numerous people watch it on TV. I mean, it's a sight to behold, and one that I very much have my blinkers on for the last few times- four times that I've done it. I want to enjoy it more, but I also want to remain focused. When you get in the car and you drive off,f and you start three-by-three, it's the only race that you start three-wide.
[00:13:53] And the amount of turbulence you get coming off the other cars, the further back you are, it is wild. Really? Like, your car is moving around. You can't do anything about it. It's just being blown around. Your head's being blown around.
[00:14:06] Lindsay: Like, literally side to side.
[00:14:07] Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. It's a bizarre, very bizarre feeling.
[00:14:14] And then obviously you go into turn one, and you start the race, and everybody kinda goes single file, and the rest is like a normal race for Indy. But it's definitely something.
[00:14:27] Lindsay: When you feel your mind start to go to other places, what is the tool that gets you back to your focus zone?
[00:14:36] Katherine: I think first you have to recognize it, right?
[00:14:38] Like, you're not driving at 230 miles an hour thinking, "Ooh, I really fancy doing barbecue chicken tonight."
[00:14:44] Lindsay: Does that happen? Does it? No? Never?
[00:14:47] Katherine: No, never.
[00:14:49] Lindsay: Cause you're such a pro, 'cause I would
[00:14:51] Katherine: You would be?
[00:14:52] Lindsay: I think so, right? Like, don't you do that in conversation? Like, you're... You know, sometimes. Oh,
[00:14:56] Katherine: I do. I have ADHD.
[00:14:57] I squirrel away all over the place, but not in a race car. Why not? In a race car I feel-
[00:15:00] Lindsay: I wonder if-
[00:15:01] Katherine: In control.
[00:15:02] Lindsay: Yeah, that's.
[00:15:03] Katherine: So I'm capable
[00:15:04] Lindsay: Yeah ...
[00:15:05] Katherine: Just not... I think it's.
[00:15:06] Lindsay: You've harnessed ...
[00:15:07] Katherine: I think I need to be going a million miles an hour. If I have to do everything with, like, military precision and as efficiently as it can be done, then I'm tuned in, and I am laser-focused, and I can stay on task.
[00:15:24] If I'm not under those constraints, then I am bouncing around all over the place.
[00:15:31] Lindsay: Totally get that. What would it mean to you to win the Indy 500?
[00:15:35] Katherine: Oh, crikey. I mean, it would be life-changing; it would change the face of motorsport, I think. It would change my life. It would be a dream come true.
[00:15:49] I mean, I don't know a race car driver who doesn't dream about that. Yeah, it would be incredible. I think I would, I think I would probably just be like, "Okay, I'm good now."
[00:16:01] Lindsay: No, you say that.
[00:16:02] Katherine: I don't know. If I won Indy, I don't think I'd go to Charlotte.
[00:16:07] Lindsay: Really? Yeah. Because you'd have to stay to celebrate, or because you'd need to soak up the moment?
[00:16:13] Katherine: I think I would wanna soak up the moment of winning the Indy 500, and I think I would never live it down if I just bounced.
[00:16:18] Lindsay: Oh, God, no. And you said it, I mean, it would be life-changing. Yeah. Every driver says that. For you, if thinking about that, something down the road potentially, what do you think that would look like?
[00:16:32] Katherine: I have no idea. I think, obviously, it would change people's opinion of women in racing. It would change the opportunities for those going, coming up behind me. But more importantly, I mean, it changes every- everybody who's won the Indy 500; they're immortalized, right? Like, they are going down in history for something incredible.
[00:16:59] Like, if you look at Mario Andretti and A.J. Foyt and Al Unser, and, like, you think of that list of names, like wouldn't it, to have your face on the Borg-Warner trophy would be something incredibly special.
[00:17:13] Lindsay: To have your face as the woman among all the men- on the Borg-Warner would be like
[00:17:18] Katherine: Whoosh.
[00:17:18] That'd be cool. I'm gonna try.
[00:17:22] Lindsay: I have some rapid fire. These are things that are on our minds, okay? Okay. What do you eat on race day?
[00:17:30] Katherine: Wow. Interesting question, because now I have to be particularly dialed in. Because before, I just had to think about what I ate before the race. Right now I have to think about what I eat before the race, after the race, and before the race again.
[00:17:40] So, you have to have something incredibly sort of simple, so as not to mess your stomach up. Or I do, because my stomach gets messed up easily. So if you've been carb loading for a couple of days before, it's, make sure you have some protein; make sure you have some energy in the, like, carb world.
[00:18:03] I don't eat rice. I don't really tend to eat pasta. I do potatoes. I'm actually looking at doing, in between the two races, I'm looking at doing, like, mashed sweet potato or something like that- so it's super gentle on my stomach. And electrolytes. And when you get out of the car, you feel incredibly sick just 'cause of the heat, and you've been moving around so much, just like motion sickness.
[00:18:28] Like car sickness. Yeah. So I'm gonna have to wait a period of time before I eat on the plane, but then also make sure I eat in advance of getting it, and little and often, which is difficult because I'm gonna be in the car. So we're talking about the goo packets and the gummies and stuff like that, that have been tried and tested, and we're also gonna try on Friday in the IndyCar practice just to make sure it doesn't make me sick.
[00:18:59] and yeah, it's electrolytes and water and more electrolytes.
[00:19:06] Lindsay: How do you train for such a grueling challenge?
[00:19:11] Katherine: I've been training the same as-
[00:19:13] Lindsay: Always.
[00:19:14] Katherine: Always.
[00:19:14] Lindsay: The CrossFit that you said,
[00:19:16] Katherine: CrossFit in the morning. I love it. It's like a community, and everybody's, like, cheering each other on, and it makes it, you're motivated to go and work out, rather than just going to the gym and picking up heavy things and putting them down again by yourself.
[00:19:30] I used to run a lot. I don't; I've stopped running quite as much, because I think I was running off all my muscle. So, I do less cardio now, and the cardio I do is shorter, higher-intensity stuff. I'm hoping that doesn't hurt me on this endurance journey. But, yeah, I'm always active.
[00:19:53] So whether it's mountain biking or playing tennis or kayaking or wake surfing or whatever it may be, I feel like I'm training my body in so many different ways that it's ready for anything.
[00:20:06] Lindsay: What's it like in your CrossFit community group? People know what you do.
[00:20:10] Katherine: Yeah.
[00:20:10] Lindsay: What is that like?
[00:20:12] Katherine: I mean, I'm just Katherine to them, like I'm just Katherine to my friends and family.
[00:20:17] It's, they ask me how my weekend's gone, and sometimes if it hasn't gone well, they'll just leave me alone. But it's, yeah, it just feels normal. I don't know any difference.
[00:20:29] Lindsay: What happens when you have to go to the restroom during a race? I know you get this question a lot.
[00:20:33] Katherine: I don't need to go because you get so dehydrated, like you use all the liquids that you have.
[00:20:40] So I go right before I get in the car. It's like, even if I don't need to, it's a thing. And then I touch wood, that's wood, I haven't needed to ever. Some people say that they will try and go under caution in the car, in their seat. I've never felt the need, and I really hope that never arises.
[00:21:02] Lindsay: Things that you can't live without, whether it's in your sports life, everyday life, or otherwise.
[00:21:08] Katherine: My dog.
[00:21:09] Lindsay: Oh.
[00:21:11] Katherine: 100%. I miss her so much.
[00:21:14] Lindsay: Barley.
[00:21:14] Katherine: Barley. Yeah, it's been a couple of weeks since I've been away and, yeah, she's my little, she's my little partner in crime, and she's my emotional support animal.
[00:21:27] Lindsay: Aw.
[00:21:28] She comes with you to the track sometimes.
[00:21:29] Katherine: Sometimes she does, yeah. It's the last couple of Indy 500s she's come with me. This time she did not, and it would've been hard anyway to navigate what we did with her over the course of going backwards and forwards, and somebody would be responsible for her, and then I'd worry.
[00:21:46] So it's better that she's home being taken care of by wonderful friends that I have that are her surrogate family, 'cause I go a lot, away a lot. But it's good peace of mind knowing that she has another... She has vacays now and again.
[00:22:00] Lindsay: She's got a separate fam.
[00:22:02] Katherine: Yeah.
[00:22:03] Lindsay: What does she bring to your life?
[00:22:04] Like, what, what purpose, with all that you do and the busyness that goes on and just the high stakes that your day job brings- how do you describe what Barley means to that world?
[00:22:17] Katherine: Oh, I think anybody who has pets knows the kinda peace and calm that they bring, right? She's my partner in crime, adventure buddy.
[00:22:27] She'll go running in the woods with me, and she'll go out on the boat. She'll snuggle up next to me on the sofa or whatever it may be. She gets me out of the house. Even when it's raining, if I don't wanna get my 10,000 steps in, she is like, "Come on, Mom." I think it's, I mean, they just love you unconditionally, right?
[00:22:47] They, you can't argue with them about how to load a dishwasher.
[00:22:52] Lindsay: Are you anal about that? Loading a dishwasher?
[00:22:55] Katherine: Not really.
[00:22:57] Lindsay: My friend who's a hockey player told me about the way he loads a dishwasher- yeah... and it was scary. I was like, "Okay."
[00:23:01] Katherine: I had a friend who had a relationship-breaking argument about how to load a dishwasher, so that's my go-to thing now.
[00:23:10] With the dishwasher thing. Yeah.
[00:23:11] Lindsay: I get it. You know a lot about dogs. Yeah. Like, you could be
[00:23:16] Katherine: Yeah ...
[00:23:16] Lindsay: Professional animal-
[00:23:18] Katherine: Well, I don't know about animals ... owner. I trai- I trained her. I had two broken legs from a crash I had during COVID, and, yeah, it was brutal. So I was incapacitated for a while, and I was doing rehab and stuff like that, and she was still a puppy.
[00:23:33] So she is impeccably trained because I had an abundance of time and treats.
[00:23:39] Lindsay: Oh my gosh. Was that one of the hardest experiences that you've had on a racetrack?
[00:23:44] Katherine: Yeah, for sure, yeah.
[00:23:45] Lindsay: What happened?
[00:23:47] Katherine: I ran over something and hit a wall at 180 miles an hour, and the car crashed, like, into me. And so- the pedals were here, the steering wheel was here. I was, like, crushed; everything. They had to cut me out. Helicoptered me to a medical, to a military hospital
[00:24:02] Lindsay: Did you remember that?
[00:24:05] Katherine: Yeah, I remember waking up butt naked on the metal medical table, coming out of the helicopter thinking, "Oh, God, I wish they'd just put me to sleep again."
[00:24:17] I don't wanna be this cold. I don't wanna be here. Just knock me out. They did, thankfully.
[00:24:22] Lindsay: And then what goes through your mind? Did you- how long did it take for you to think about getting back in a race car?
[00:24:28] Katherine: Oh, almost immediately. Will I still want to? Have I lost it? Have I lost my nerve? Will I still be able to drive?
[00:24:35] Are my legs gonna be strong enough? Will I be able to train? When will I be able to train? I wanted to do Le Mans that year.
[00:24:42] And I was like, "I'll be ready." It was in six weeks or something, and there was just no way. So I was not ready, unfortunately. But I was coaching a Ferrari Challenge driver, and I said, "I'll do a reference lap," because normally you do a reference lap for the data, and telemetry was the word I was looking for.
[00:25:07] And they were like, "No, you're in a wheelchair. What are you doing?" And so I lifted myself out of the wheelchair into the Ferrari Challenge car, and I drove it, and I was like, "Okay, I still got it." Like, I'm not scared of it. We're good. We can do this. And then that gave me the motivation to do all the rehab and come back, you know?
[00:25:25] Lindsay: And that was right before COVID, or actually during?
[00:25:27] Katherine: It was during.
[00:25:28] Lindsay: Whoa. So what was that like?
[00:25:31] Katherine: Lonely. It was... I'm very independent, and it was infuriating. My parents- so my dad was in France at the time, which is where I broke them. And so he helped get me to rehab, and then my fiancé at the time got me back to the States, and then my parents both came over to look after me because they had to take it in turns.
[00:25:54] I couldn't get upstairs or anything. I was still in a wheelchair.
[00:25:58] Lindsay: Wow.
[00:25:59] Katherine: Yeah.
[00:26:00] Lindsay: And hence the time that you really spent with
[00:26:02] Katherine: Barbie. With my dog.
[00:26:03] Lindsay: With your dog. We bonded. Training your dog.
[00:26:07] When you were a little kid, what did you envision that your career would be?
[00:26:12] Katherine: Oh, when I was a little kid, I wanted to do something crazy like be a fighter pilot or an economist and work on the trading floor and do something adrenaline-based.
[00:26:24] I loved racing, but I never dreamed that I would be a race car driver. I just kept kind of trying, and I was fortunate enough to make that career, but it was never... I always wanted to be an F1 driver, but I don't think, when you can't see anybody like you doing it, it just doesn't occur to you that you could be.
[00:26:43] But it also didn't occur to me that I couldn't be either, so I just kind of kept trying.
[00:26:49] Lindsay: So is it like you, you kept trying, and you just kept moving forward- as the doors would open?
[00:26:54] Katherine: Yep, and taking every opportunity that comes.
[00:26:57] Lindsay: What was the biggest move forward for you when you think back on what your path has been?
[00:27:02] Katherine: Oh, 100%, meeting Kevin Kalkhoven and his family. So, Kevin Kalkhoven, who owned the IndyCar series back then and, a- and a team, was in England buying Cosworth from Ford. They were like the sporty version of Ford back then. They were the, I don't know, Lexus to the Toyota kinda deal. And, he sold his company for billions of dollars, and he was this really high-powered businessman buying this big company.
[00:27:39] And I turn up, and I heard that he was doing it, so I'm like, got my CV, my resume, and I turn up, and I'm like, "Hey, can I see Kevin Kalkoven, please?" And the receptionist was like, "No."
[00:27:53] Lindsay: What was your plan?
[00:27:54] Katherine: I thought that they would let me see him, or I would bump into him in some way, shape, or form, and that he would take my CV and, you know, maybe consider it.
[00:28:06] I don't know. I don't know if I had a plan. I was, like, 20 years old, and, yeah, I was very shy, and so it took every ounce of gumption that I had to go to those offices. And I was like, "Okay, I'll wait for him." 'Cause I was thinking, "He's gonna be in and out of meetings, and he's gonna be coming out to get lunch or whatever.
[00:28:26] I'll just wait." Well, his daughter... Instead of security, thank God, they sent his daughter and his fiancée at the time, then his wife, after that, out to get rid of me.
[00:28:40] Lindsay: To just kind of, like, take care of your-
[00:28:42] Katherine: The crazy lady in reception. I guess I looked non-threatening, which was good. But I was armed with a piece of paper with my racing resume on it.
[00:28:53] Lindsay: Do you remember what you were wearing?
[00:28:55] Katherine: I was wearing a suit, a pantsuit that I borrowed from somebody because I didn't have one, 'cause I was used to being in a race suit, and it was itchy. I just remember that. I remember driving home and it being itchy. And I saw them, and I told them who I was and what I wanted to do, and they thought that I had a gumption for going there and doing that.
[00:29:19] And they said, "Dad..." Kirsty said, "Dad, you should really just meet her for five minutes." And so he came in, and he met me, and I was like, "I r- I really want to race in America. I've been doing this. I'll make you proud. Like, please tell me what to do. Follow that." 'Cause
[00:29:34] Lindsay: Before, you had been racing overseas.
[00:29:35] Katherine: In Europe. Yeah. 'Cause I'm British.
[00:29:37] Lindsay: Yep.
[00:29:37] Katherine: And, and he was like, "Yeah, okay, crazy English lady." And I gave him my resume, and I left, and I cried on the way home, and I called my dad, 'cause you could use cell phones in the car back then, right? And I was like, "I don't think that's gonna work." And it was kind of my last-ditch attempt at trying to make a thing of racing.
[00:30:00] We didn't have family because things had sort of dried up in the
[00:30:00] Lindsay: UK.
[00:30:02] Katherine: We didn't have family money. Yeah. So without money, you can't race, really, so you need either a scholarship, which I had before, or a sponsor, and I didn't have any of the above, so I was like, "Okay, gonna try." and I got a call four days later from Jim Griffith, who owned a team called Polestar, and they had an Atlantic team.
[00:30:28] And they said, "Hey, can you be in Phoenix on Tuesday? Because Kevin Kalkhoven wants us to test you."
[00:30:34] Lindsay: Oh my God. Oh my God. That just gave me goosebumps.
[00:30:37] Katherine: So I called my dad again, and I was like, "Hey, so I'm gonna need a plane fare to Phoenix." And, so he lent me the money to-
[00:30:48] Lindsay: Wait, what did your dad say in that call?
[00:30:51] Katherine: I don't remember. I don't remember it being anything... My dad's so chill and, like, level. He'll be like, "Right, right, okay, yeah. Oh, how much is a plane ticket?" Kind of a deal, like, not like, "Oh my God, this is amazing." Just very level and matter-of-fact. And so I go to Phoenix, and I do a good job, and the team sends a report to Kevin saying, "She's good," like, "We should give her a chance."
[00:31:17] And so Kevin says, "Okay, young lady, you have six races. You can show us what you've got in six races." And I went to Long Beach. It was the first race, and I crashed in qualifying, so they... So I started at the back. And I made my way through the field from last position to first position, and I won the race.
[00:31:41] I was the first woman to win a major open-wheel race in North America. I have a star on Long Beach Boulevard there now. And that kind of was the springboard to... I won another three races that year, finished on the podium, like, five times, and finished third in the championship, and got the opportunity to drive the F1 car at the end of that year and then do a shootout for the Champ Car ride, which I won for the following year.
[00:32:07] And that kind of put me on the motorsport map, and that was the start of my career, so it was a very... That one Cosworth meeting is the reason I'm sitting here talking to you today.
[00:32:16] Lindsay: So in terms of a thing no one tells you, what is a thing no one tells you that you've experienced?
[00:32:23] Katherine: That's a good question. I think you have to get comfortable being uncomfortable.
[00:32:29] And if you don't put yourself out there, nothing will happen. You have to create your own opportunities. I mean, there's a lot of luck in this world, but you have to also be in the right place at the right time and create those opportunities. And as soon as you get comfortable again, then they start to dry up.
[00:32:46] So you have to keep doing things that challenge you and that scare you and that make you uncomfortable to keep creating different opportunities in this world.
[00:32:55] Lindsay: Oh, that's good. When you won Long Beach, what was that moment like?
[00:33:00] Katherine: Oh, incredible. Just, like, amazing. My dad was there. I remember there being such hoopla on the podium, and everybody was coming up to me, and Kevin was so proud, and it was just an incredible experience.
[00:33:15] It was, like, validation and relief and all of the things, right?
[00:33:20] Lindsay: How do you sum up what it's been like since then to this point? Why are you laughing?
[00:33:27] Katherine: It's been such a rollercoaster. Like, great times, terrible times, great times.
[00:33:31] Lindsay: Like, yeah.
[00:33:32] Katherine: It's life. It's just, it's- It knocks you down, you get back up, and then you have other great moments, and you have other awful moments, and that's what living's all about.
[00:33:43] Lindsay: And here, so here we are in e.l.f. headquarters. And like, so my perspective as someone who has now been covering IndyCar for several years but wasn't always around the sport, when I was there at the racetrack when you ran with the e.l.f. sponsorship for the first time, I knew that was happening.
[00:34:04] And then when I showed up there, I saw with my own eyes, like you said the word palpable before, the excitement, like, around you and watching, like... Oh, I'm not gonna cry. But, like, the girls. Do you know what I mean?
[00:34:19] Katherine: Yeah. It was, like, you know that maybe that-
[00:34:20] Lindsay: The solidarity ... the solidarity, like, you could feel it.
[00:34:22] Katherine: Yeah.
[00:34:22] Lindsay: It was, and it wasn't just within the e.l.f., you know, created garage that they had as the activation.
[00:34:29] Katherine: It was the whole place. It was. 300,000 people. And for the first time in my 20-year career, it felt like they were being represented, and they could get behind something, and there was just this, like, solidari- It's solidarity where they were all…
[00:34:45] Lindsay: Yeah
[00:34:46] Katherine: Like, they felt like they had something, they had ownership of something, too. You know? Yeah. Like, everybody knows and loves e.l.f., so that's easy to support. There's a pink car. They can show their daughters, hey, you can be anything you wanna be if you set your mind to it. There are only perceived barriers, right?
[00:35:03] So I think the fact that- there was like this energy that just kept snowballing down the mountain of, you know, we- our engine blew up unfortunately like 10 laps into the race, so I was out pretty early, and the crowd was on their feet for like 10 minutes. I,
[00:35:21] Lindsay: Yes.
[00:35:21] Katherine: It was incredible. And like it just sets off this whole thing where they feel like they have a sister in me.
[00:35:30] You know? It was just, it was incredibly special. Yeah. And I had been trying to create- I hate the phrase girl power, but it sums it up. I had been trying to create this kind of sisterhood for 20 years of racing, and I had not managed it. And then Elf came on board, and it was this, like, shiny bright light that was, you know, and not everybody got behind it.
[00:35:58] And still, I don't wanna speak for every woman or every female race car driver. Yeah. But it definitely felt like they were, for the first time, recognized that they were there because most of the time it's a man's sport and they're advertised to by male-oriented companies.
[00:36:17] Lindsay: Yes.
[00:36:18] I think that's a big difference.
[00:36:19] Katherine: And so this time they had the Elf car, and they wear makeup, and so even if they've never used e.l.f. before, they might try it now. And they were like, "Oh, cool," you know? It's a lipstick car," or whatever it was.
[00:36:34] Lindsay: So, it's like they were celebrating. It's like they're, it's like being seen.
[00:36:38] But I remember- yeah... that moment, two things stuck out to me. Number one, going to wait to see if you were back at your garage stall, and you weren't. You were still on pit road, and I think this might have been sometime during a practice or qualifying. But the group of people that were waiting for you, I was like, "Whoa," you know?
[00:36:56] Because it was... And I remember, and I said to one of the girls, "Oh, have you met Katherine before?" "No." Like- none of... Do you know what I mean? Like, they, they- just were there because they were so, and they were taking pictures of the makeup.
[00:37:08] Katherine: Yeah ...
[00:37:09] Lindsay: that you had on top of the garage. Yeah. And then when you got out of the race, as you said, I mean, I remember you, like, fist pumping, but then that, you could hear it and feel it.
[00:37:18] Katherine: Yeah, just waved at the crowd.
[00:37:19] Lindsay: Yeah.
[00:37:20] Katherine: Because they, you know, had been there supporting me. So that was the unfortunate end to our race, but I felt like it was the start of something incredibly special.
[00:37:30] Lindsay: Yeah, and you're still pushing that wave and moving that forward.
[00:37:34] Katherine: Absolutely.
[00:37:34] Lindsay: There aren't a lot of women, though, behind you- nope
[00:37:37] in the sport. Unfortunately not. Why? What is the thing that no one talks about in terms of that?
[00:37:43] Katherine: I think, you know, everybody says the landscape's changing. In the world, there are more women CEOs; there are more women presidents or prime ministers or whatever you are, depending on wherever you are. But in racing it's got worse, right?
[00:37:59] Yeah. If you look at it in all reality, in 2013 when I did Indy, the first go-around before I came back 10 years later, there was Danica, there was me, there was Simona, there was Bea. There were, like, five or six of us, and now there's one. I'm the last man standing, and there's nobody in the immediate future coming up through.
[00:38:20] Nobody is doing super well in the Xfinity Series on the NASCAR side or the Indy Lights series over here. There was one, and she went back to Europe. So I think we're probably four or five years out at minimum until the next Danica, Katherine, Sarah, whoever. That's not long at all. Yeah, and it's honestly disappointing because you would think that there'd be more and more as it became more accessible.
[00:38:44] But what happened was there was a women-only series in Europe called the W Series.
[00:38:52] And then that morphed into the F1 Academy when the Formula 1 organization took it on, and that's an all-women series. And so it kind- They sucked all the oxygen out of the air. They took any of the young, promising female drivers over to do that, with the claim that it would make...
[00:39:12] It would give them an opportunity, right? And in a way it did, because in a way they now have access to potential sponsors. They have- they've been trained, like, in PR and social media and all of that, and they have access to Formula 1 teams and some good European teams. And so they were like, "If you can win in the F1 Academy, then you can go on to F2 or whatever it is and make your way up to F1."
[00:39:42] What has, in all reality, happened so far, and I hope it changes, is that they created this, like, rah-rah championship for women that you can only do for a couple of years at a time and then you have to move on, and it's got age restrictions and everything else. So it's not like a women's sport. It's like a stepping stone that kind of, in my opinion, halts your progress or, like, pulls it back a little bit because- Jamie, who won the W Series two years in a row, I believe.
[00:40:18] I'm not sure. She came over here; she did Indy Lights. She won an Indy Lights gun. Yeah. And then she went back to Europe. She didn't step up to the big leagues. And so, she's the only one that's come anywhere close, and the others have gone on to be test drivers or, like, token... And I hate to say that 'cause it's not a lack of respect for the girls.
[00:40:43] It's a reflection on the system that has created this. You know, like, "Oh, there, pat on the head. "You can be a, you can be our PR rep for, you know, representing women because we're all about diversity." It's not real. It's not like they're putting money in them doing F3, F2, F1.
[00:41:04] Lindsay: Actually, in the series where they would be competing- the stepping stones to the actual competition.
[00:41:09] Katherine: If you look at it, to be the best, you have to beat the best. I mean, that's self-explanatory. But if you look at it over history, you had Janet Guthrie, Lyn St. James, Sarah Fisher, Danica, me, Simona.
[00:41:21] We all got tough. We all got thick skins. We all got toughened up, and we all had to fight against the best of the best at every level coming through to make us who we are now. And they've taken that away from them. And so I think maybe a few of them will come out of it and do these other series and make it through, I hope.
[00:41:45] But I also think that it's kind of stunted their growth, and it's created this big gap in top-level motorsports that is now completely void of women. There is not any. There are a few sports cars. There's Lilou Wadoux. There's the Iron Dames, and then there's Jamie. And, like, the fact that I can name them, on the one hand, of the women drivers that I respect at the top level, is disgusting, right?
[00:42:18] Like, it should be a myriad, and I should be like, "Oh, what about that one over there, and what about the one in Australia- Yeah ... and what about this?" but there isn't. And so that vacuum was created by something. And I think that they need to take a long, hard look at the fact that they're claiming that they're supporting women, and in fact, it set the whole women's rights movement back by a couple of decades.
[00:42:48] Lindsay: What do you think the solution is? I mean, especially when, you know, girls and women can look up, and they can see you doing two series in one weekend. Yeah. Doing all this, so versatile in the different types of racing. How would you fix it?
[00:43:04] Katherine: Yeah, I don't know, because the problem is F1 is so big and shiny, right?
[00:43:09] You want to believe that you can make it to Formula 1, so I understand why they do it. They're also, you know, the access to all these people at Formula 1 weekends is a good enough reason to as well, to prove you're the, that you're the best at something. I honestly don't fault them at all, and I support…
[00:43:28] If it was a women's sport as well, I could kind of understand it. I think that we shouldn't be segregated, and there's no reason why we can't compete. But then if you put us in equal cars and equal equipment and everything else, then I could kind of understand that as well. I think the reason it was created was maybe with good intentions, but I think that they need to take a cold look at it and say, "Okay, why are they not progressing out of here, and why, if they are, is it only one or two that are going on to do sports cars and not going to Indy or going to NASCAR?"
[00:43:58] Maybe they don't want to. Maybe they don't like IndyCar or NASCAR. I don't know. But We're kind of taking things into our own hands a little bit over here in North America, and that is Lyn St. James, who has always been obviously very supportive of lots of women in racing. She's creating programs and systems to help these young girls navigate the racing landscape.
[00:44:24] And then I'm working with GM, with a couple of really promising young female drivers that, if we can support them up through the ranks instead of letting them go over and do the F1 Academy, we're gonna try and do it the old-fashioned way. And hopefully in four or five years they'll be more successful than I am or that any of us have been before because they have that support and knowledge and, you know, "Don't do this because I tried this and it didn't work out.
[00:44:56] Do it this way instead."
[00:44:57] Lindsay: But show up. Show up- yeah... and take the risk. What is that gonna look like? What are the preliminary, like, plans of what you guys would-
[00:45:07] Katherine: Well.
[00:45:07] Lindsay: What would you do?
[00:45:08] Katherine: We have one already, and we have a couple in mind. We have one that we're working with in the NASCAR kind of arena, in that she's doing ARCA, she's doing Trans-Am, she's doing a bunch of Sprint Car stuff.
[00:45:24] And she, and her name's Laney, she's got the right attitude. She works really hard. She's got the talent. And so if we can just kind of keep her steered on the straight and narrow, I think she's gonna be really good. But you still have to prove yourself at every level, right? You still have to go through, like, on the NASCAR side, the ARCA, the trucks, or the Xfinity, and then to the Cup. So in all reality, that's four years away probably.
[00:45:46] Lindsay: Yeah.
[00:45:47] Katherine: So... But she's young. I mean, she's got time. It's just that there is that vacuum behind me.
[00:45:55] Lindsay: It's a sisterhood though. You're creating a sisterhood, for real.
[00:45:58] Katherine: Well, yeah, I would like to think so. I struggle with how to position all of these things, right?
[00:46:07] Because I also don't claim to speak for women in racing, because I would never want to take their uniqueness away from them. Like, Laney can do it her way-
[00:46:19] and be the driver that she doesn't have to be the next me or the next Danica or the next anybody else. She can be the first Laney, right?
[00:46:26] 'Cause I remember coming up, I was compared to Sarah and Danica and all the things. I'm like, "We're drivers. You don't compare me to Jenson Button or Lewis Hamilton, unfortunately." Right,
[00:46:38] Lindsay: Right.
[00:46:39] Katherine: So I wanna, I want to walk that tightrope that is being sexist in a different way. Because, you know- you've gotta- it's just, it's such a hard thing to dance around because you want to be supportive of them.
[00:46:58] But then somebody could say, "Well, why aren't you helping man drivers or male drivers because men have helped you to get there?" And so there's like all these nuances to it. I just wanna do it as authentically and as simply as I can with her.
[00:47:13] Lindsay: I mean, if they say that.
[00:47:17] Katherine: I mean, they haven't yet,
[00:47:18] Lindsay: but you help male drivers also
[00:47:19] Katherine: I'm trying to think about all the things.
[00:47:20] Lindsay: No, you're right, 'cause you're a good person. Well, okay. Lastly, what is your favorite moment on the racetrack? After all these years, what is the thing that still lights you up when you're-
[00:47:33] Katherine: The first time you go out of a race weekend, and it's, so it's the first time on track, it's back in the car after a week, two weeks, two years, whatever it may be, and you get to just come out of pit lane and put your foot down.
[00:47:44] You're like, "I have the coolest job in the world. This is pretty awesome." And it's just a reminder before you get into the nitty-gritty of the weekend. '
[00:47:53] Lindsay: Cause it's just so fast?
[00:47:55] Katherine: It's just, like, "This is so cool." Before you're worried about understeer or pit stops or whatever else it is, like trying to dial the car in, how much hybrid you're gonna use, whatever it is.
[00:48:04] Like, you then go into How do we make it better and your mind starts working. But that out loud is just, "I have the coolest job in the whole world."
[00:48:13] Lindsay: I love how Katherine is just so obsessed with her dog, Barley. And, you know, watching Katherine that day racing in the Indy 500 and then going to the Coca-Cola 600, the same thing happened.
[00:48:27] It was like Katherine got out of a race car and the fans just went wild, and it was so easy to see at the racetrack all the girls, the young girls that were sort of captivated by her and that were interested in getting to know more about who this woman was that was driving a race car. So I thought that was really cool, and I'm hopeful for the next generation of female racers that they will take stock and really lean in to learning from Katherine and the other women that she's working with to really try to steer and guide and bring more women up into the mix.
[00:49:01] So if you liked this episode, which I hope you did, I hope that you will like, subscribe, rate, review, and as we always say, share the episode with a friend. For our team here at TNOTY Producer Ashley, Editor Sam, Brand Manager Sarah we wanna say thank you for watching, for listening. Send us your ideas.
[00:49:22] We'd love to hear more of what you guys wanna be listening to. And as always, we will see you soon.