Letting Joy and Grief Live Side by Side with Sheinelle Jones: Ep 55
Highlights from the episode:
Letting conversations with loved ones linger a little longer
What grief makes suddenly clear
Why everything can’t take center stage at once
Meeting a new version of yourself in the moment
Following what truly fuels you in every season
Podcast show notes:
What happens when some of the biggest opportunities of your life arrive during one of its hardest seasons?
That’s part of what my friend Sheinelle Jones is navigating right now. Alongside raising three teenagers, she’s stepped into a new chapter at TODAY, released her book Through Mom’s Eyes, and continued figuring out what life looks like after losing her husband, Uche.
Sheinelle talks candidly about why another career change initially felt overwhelming, what she has discovered about herself on the other side of it, and the parenting lessons she learned from mothers of people like Steph Curry, Lin-Manuel Miranda, and Lady Gaga.
But this conversation goes deeper than parenting advice. We talk about identity, ambition, presence, memory, and the surprising way grief can sharpen your sense of what deserves your energy.
What You’ll Hear:
Trying to be fully present in an incredibly busy life (04:58)
What stepping outside her comfort zone taught Sheinelle (13:29)
Lessons from mothers who raised extraordinary kids (22:09)
Making space for motherhood and your own identity (37:51)
Why every priority cannot be center stage at once (42:47)
The complicated reality of grief after the first year (46:22)
This episode is a reminder that joy and sadness can coexist, careers and motherhood do not have to be either-or choices, and the little things often aren’t the things worth worrying about.
Subscribe to Things No One Tells You for more conversations like this, and if you enjoy the show, please share it with a friend.
Connect with Sheinelle Jones
Follow Sheinelle on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/sheinelle_o/
Discover Sheinelle’s book Through Mom’s Eyes - Simple Wisdom From Mothers Who Raised Extraordinary Humans https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/751130/through-moms-eyes-by-sheinelle-jones/
Be sure to subscribe to Things No One Tells You—Lindsay’s podcast all about the real, unfiltered conversations we don’t always have but should. From big names to everyday voices, each episode dives into the moments that shape us. Listen wherever you get your podcasts!
Follow along with Lindsay below!
Full Transcript
[00:00:00] Sheinelle: I've learned, especially with my older one, that they don't necessarily need me to fix it. I've always tried to fix things, and I can't fix everything. They just need us to hear it, hear them. And I used to try to come up with examples so that they, my kids, would know that, "Oh, this happened to me, too." They hate that.
[00:00:16] So now I've learned to try to just... I give it to them sometimes. Other times I just try to, and I don't get it right every day. But I also have been, I've been trying to let my conversations linger to where it's a bit uncomfortable for me. Just one extra step. 'Cause I'm just, I'm just going, and I don't linger.
[00:00:35] Yeah. But I've been trying to let the conversations linger just where it's almost a beat too long. Sometimes that's where the magic happens.
[00:00:44] Lindsay: Welcome to Things No One Tells You. I'm Lindsay, and I'm so glad that you're with us today. And I just wanna say this episode is one where it just makes me think of family, and here's why.
[00:00:56] Sheinelle Jones is my friend who I talked to for this episode of Things No One Tells You. And for those of you that have watched Sheinelle on the Today Show, what I love so much about what she does is every time I watch her, and I, watch her a lot now that she's on the fourth hour Today with Jenna and Sheinelle, because she is someone that is the same person off-camera as she is on.
[00:01:20] And I really think that some people are just gifted with this ability to just talk and communicate just like they do in life even though they're on television, and that is who Sheinelle is. And I think when she decided to take that role, and so in addition to what she does on The Today Show, to do that fourth hour, which is much more of the long-form talk show with Jenna Bush Hager, I feel like it is such a gift to everyone that watches because she has such a unique talent of connecting dots, being really relatable, and God, does she have a lot to talk about.
[00:01:53] So I wanted to talk to Sheinelle, on one hand, because of her book, Through Mom's Eyes, which,for her, she set out to write a book of these, like, examples of just extraordinary mothers. But it really became something a lot deeper through her own experiences. So Sheinelle is the mom of three. She is such a busy worker.
[00:02:14] I mean, she has so much constantly on the plate that she balances. But also, it recently marks the first anniversary of the death of her husband, Uche. And Sheinelle is a friend. She is someone that I have come to know, obviously through my husband, who works with her at the Today Show.
[00:02:33] But Uche was also a friend, and I can tell you he just was such a light, and Sheinelle, they had the coolest relationship. And so I think about that a lot, and when I think about her, I think about just what she must be navigating as well with the loss of him and this new normal, sort of also discovering at the same time this new version now of herself because not only is she figuring out how to navigate and live life as a single parent now with three wonderful children.
[00:03:02] She's got a village around her that she talks about, but also now she is still navigating this, this new career that she has added on to. And again, I just think it is amazing the work that she's doing. I am so thankful to share this conversation. So I don't wanna make you wait any longer.
[00:03:19] Sheinelle: Here she is, my friend Sheinelle Jones.
[00:03:23] Lindsay: Shenell, oh my gosh. When I think about just our lives, and sometimes I think that, like, oh, it's like 1:00 and I feel like I've been up for two days. And then I think about your schedule and how you must like literally you almost have been. Like how- yeah... how are you?
[00:03:39] Sheinelle: That's a really good question.
[00:03:40] How am I? I can say how I am today.
[00:03:44] Lindsay: Okay. How are you today?
[00:03:45] Sheinelle: Today, how am I today? I'm so excited to talk to you. It feels like you're like family, and so this is
[00:03:53] great. And I've watched all of your podcasts and all of your projects and- oh my gosh ... I follow your Instagram page, so I feel excited to be part of the roster.
[00:04:01] So there's that. I am busier than I ever have been. Every time I think I'm in a place in life where I couldn't possibly be busier, it just gets, it gets cranked up a notch. Really? At any given time, think about how, I guess, one child, one teenager would have so many activities going on, right?
[00:04:24] I have three teenagers at this point with three different interests, music theater and soccer. My boys play on two different teams, and so just managing their schedules alone feels like a full-time job. And then I have my own job and my own show, and thenI've written this book, and so I'm on a tour for this book.
[00:04:44] And then, it's just me, every day I feel like I wake up and I have a to-do list that's so long, and I know I can't get them all done, so I just try to get as much as I can accomplish. And then I go to sleep, and then I wake up, and I do it all over again. And so I feel like my challenge, and I've tried to just kind of slow down and be in the moment.
[00:05:07] So right now you and I are talking, and everything else is just going to have to wait
[00:05:12] Lindsay: Feel like you're at a good place with all of that stuff? Do you, sometimes- I have days where I'm like, "This day feels like it's moving really fast. I really feel like I don't have an ounce of time between this thing and the next thing."
[00:05:27] And I know, like, seeing what you and Melvin do professionally, that you guys are a well-oiled machine like that. So hearing you rattle that list, it's like, have you gotten to a place with it all that you're able to do that and be present and enjoy? Or do you- what have you learned?
[00:05:43] Sheinelle: I, yes. I will say, so for example, right here, I am fully here.
[00:05:49] Or, lately I've been on this book tour and on initiatives all over the country, and when I'm in these rooms with men and women, I love it so much that I allow myself to just be fully present. And then when I'm with the kids, I've noticed-, even I've noticed it; they wouldn't notice, but I notice it- that I try to shut everything else out and just be with them and let the conversations linger a little longer.
[00:06:13] And so I'm trying to do a better job of only saying yes to things that I really want to do, and I think I've gotten better at that for the most part. There are still some things sometimes where I'll be somewhere, and I'm like, "Why did I say yes to this? What am I doing?" but for the most part, at least I'm busy doing things that I love.
[00:06:31] Lindsay: Yeah. Anit- yeah ... and you're doing amazing. While you're talking, yeah... about the new things that you love and added things that have come onto your plate, how has the new show been for you, and how has that schedule been and, and just ev- all the things that come with it?
[00:06:48] Sheinelle: I, it's, I love it so much.
[00:06:51] If you had asked me maybe four months ago, I would say, "Oh, I like it. I'm getting used to it." It was- I did the third hour of Today for a really long time, for years, and Al and Craig and Dylan, they're like my siblings. And so, everybody just assumed that I was probably going to go to the fourth hour, and everybody else assumed it, but I don't think, I certainly didn't, and I was very comfortable doing the third hour of Today.
[00:07:17] They're like family to me. And so my life has changed so much that for me, the third hour was like a blanket. It was comfortable. It's like ... it's the one thing that I know. I can fall to the right or to the left, and I get it. I know what it's gonna be. Like-
[00:07:32] Lindsay: Yeah ...
[00:07:33] Sheinelle: You could go to work, and it was almost, I hate to say, easy.
[00:07:36] but it kinda was. And I... It just was, it's been my safe place. Work was my safe place. And so to get this new opportunity, while it is an opportunity, and it was at the time, I was just unsure about more change. I was like, "My nervous system has had enough." And so I didn't know if I could handle the new schedule and everything that comes with having a show with your name on it and that responsibility.
[00:08:01] I just thought, "Oh my God, can I handle this?" But you know what? Of course I can. And I think they always say that's when you grow, right? Right when it's uncomfortable, that's how you know- you're growing. And so I did. I jumped into this new opportunity, and now, months in, it was the best decision.
[00:08:18] I have been challenged in ways that I didn't even know I could be challenged. There's an editorial, I think, responsibility when there's, when you have two versus four. Sometimes that would be like, "Oh, Craig will handle it, or Dylan will," But with two of us ... you really feel like you have to kinda hold your own a little bit.
[00:08:34] And also, Al calls me Sheinelle 2.0, but it's like, who do I want to be? Who am I now? I've changed a little bit, and so I am getting to know the new me, to be honest. And I like her. I mean, there are parts of me that will obviously always be the same, but there are a lot of parts of me that I'm just now discovering, and I've changed a little bit.
[00:08:55] And so it feels really new. It feels like a new chapter truly, or a new season truly.
[00:09:02] Lindsay: Or like sort of an awakening of, but that sounds really hokey, but like, yeah. Like you're- no... you're shedding off, like you are stepping into anew.
[00:09:12] Sheinelle: It does. It does feel that way. And so even with writing the book and then planning a book tour, and then really just taking stock of my life and saying, "Okay, what is this going to look like?"
[00:09:22] You can't control what happened, and it is going to look different. And I, for a second, tried to kinda hold on to- what I knew, and that's just not gonna work 'cause life is different. And so I am embracing this new chapter, and I love working with Jenna. It's like a friend that I've known across the hallway at school, but we've never been in class together.
[00:09:45] Lindsay: We're- I was about to say ...
[00:09:46] Sheinelle: We’re sharing a class.
[00:09:49] Lindsay: What has surprised you most? Has there been anything that surprised you about-
[00:09:55] Sheinelle: What has surprised me most? I've always been me, and I feel like I've done the Met Gala and I've done all of these things, but I will admit that the show has raised my profile in a way that I didn't see coming.
[00:10:09] Because I've been on the Today Show now for almost 11, 12 years. And so I've kinda always been, like,e I don't wanna call it the stepchild, 'cause that's not nice, but I've always just kind of been on the periphery. Happy in my place- yeah... but that's just kinda how it's been. So this has been, in some ways, I've kind of moved over a little bit outside of the periphery, and I'm like, "Oh, wow.
[00:10:31] There's a bit more sun here," and do I like it? Okay, it's warm. I'll receive it, but it's a little different. I feel it.
[00:10:39] Lindsay: Have- for the kids, have the kids noticed it as well?
[00:10:43] Sheinelle: I don't think they noticed anything different until the day we did my book launch, and they surprised me and brought the kids on that day.
[00:10:52] Yeah. I didn't see that coming.
[00:10:53] Lindsay: Oh.
[00:10:54] Sheinelle: I saw their eyes, and one, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I think they're proud of me." Oh. And two, I think they realize the shift and the change in Mommy's job, because it's all they've ever known. I've always been on the news- yeah... so they don't really know any different.
[00:11:07] But in this case, I think they saw it because, partly b, I think they were kind of waiting in the wings. And so they saw the intro of the show, which I don't think they've seen. They saw the dynamic of a chat, and then the little vignette about the book and my why, and I just think it kind of couched it for them in a way that they hadn't really processed.
[00:11:24] And so now I think they get it, and I think, I do think- the why ... They're proud of me.
[00:11:30] Lindsay: And packaged together in a way that they could understand it and see it. Yeah. That it's... Yeah, and it's funny because, Melvin, actually, I rarely obviously get to watch any parts of The Today Show with him because he's usually on it.
[00:11:44] Yeah. On a recent occasion when he was home, he had a day off, and he was watching the show, and it was really cool- to watch him watch part of it- with the third hour.
[00:11:57] But you guys are just s- you're such a family, and it, I don't, in that conversation he and I were having, we were talking about, like, this is such a well-produced segment.
[00:12:05] It just is. And it's like, but there's also such a genuineness to it. I think any facet of that show, and anyway, it's- it's special. And
[00:12:15] Sheinelle: That's, you're, no, you're exactly right. And the thing about moving to- I keep saying Hoda and Jenna. It's so crazy. I still call it Hoda and Jenna. It's Jenna and Savannah.
[00:12:24] Sometimes I have to catch myself. So- but the thing about moving to the fourth hour is, I didn't leave the school. I'm just in a different classroom, and so I still see all my friends. I still see them during recess.
[00:12:34] Lindsay: Yeah,
[00:12:35] Sheinelle: I still go to class sometimes with the others, and so we're all still there, and I've realized that.
[00:12:39] I think I was afraid that I wouldn't see my f- wouldn't see my friends, but of course I do.
[00:12:45] Lindsay: Yeah. Or that you're stepping out. It's funny. So I just had an IndyCar driver, Katherine Legge, on the podcast, and Katherine was saying when she, we were talking about the thing no one tells you, and she was talking about how you have to step outside of your comfort zone, but beyond- have to seek out opportunity that feels right, that makes you feel uncomfortable. And when things start to feel cozy- that means that it might just be time to start doing it all again. And the way that she, I'm not doing it justice, but-
[00:13:15] Sheinelle: No, but I believe that
[00:13:17] Lindsay: Right? I do too. And I think sometimes it's really hard to see.
[00:13:21] Sheinelle: Yeah.
[00:13:22] Lindsay: But it's, if you can really conceptualize that, I think that it's something that certainly comes up for all of us- more than we realize.
[00:13:29] Sheinelle: I think it's a lesson for all of us, and I will tell you- it was, and I think people didn't expect me to even say that I was uncomfortable at first, but it was.
[00:13:36] It was change, and I'm like, "Am I ready for more change and a new role and everything that comes with it?" And now, with some distance, I have clarity on it. Of c- of course it was the right thing, and of course you should challenge yourself. And because when you do that, you're opening yourself up to opportunities that you didn't even know existed.
[00:13:55] You don't even know what you don't know. And so I have enjoyed seeing the view from another classroom, and I love it.
[00:14:04] Lindsay: So, okay, Through A Mom's Eyes.
[00:14:06] Sheinelle: Yeah.
[00:14:06] Lindsay: Like, oh, this is, it's so awesome. I love the women that you talk to absolutely, but the way that you weave your stories in, it's just incredible.
[00:14:18] And also, I was thinking about it, like, just the fact that I know that you had wanted this to come out; it was supposed to come out last year. And then your family went through what happened with Uche and- yeah. How wild it is that this, where you are now having this book come out, I was just wondering, reading and listening, 'cause I mean, truth be told, I do lo- I love listening to chapters because of your voice.
[00:14:46] And it's like... it's knowing you, it's like this is really cool 'cause you're hearing you actually tell the story.
[00:14:52] So, it's a hodgepodge. And I was just wondering what it was like having this come out now and the timing with it.
[00:15:00] Sheinelle: It is mind-blowing. It is mind-blowing. I can't make it make sense, but in some ways it brings me comfort. I begged for this book to come out last April. Uche was insistent. So the book was supposed to come out April 14th last year, and he passed on May 18th. So a month before he passed, he was like, he kept going, "No. No." And I'm like, "I, they won't, they're telling me that, look, I need to be with you.
[00:15:28] I can't..." And now I know, right? I couldn't have gone on a book tour or, the way- yeah... that I've been flying all over the place and putting in the hours doing podcasting. At the time, he wanted it out, and I- he didn't want me to let go of my dreams, and so I pushed and pushed, and they said, "Sheinelle, just go be with him.
[00:15:46] Go be with the kids. Just, and I said, "Okay." And obviously it was the best thing I could have ever done. And now, I had to rework the beginning and talk about the book and talk about him a little bit and talk about it more in the end. So in the middle, the content stayed the same except for the beginning and the end.
[00:16:04] But it almost took on and has taken on a much more depth, I think, than it probably would have. When I go and I talk to groups of women, like I said, I'm changed, and so I think there's a deeper conversation there. Sure, we talk about the X's and O's of parenting and the diaper years, and the teenage years and everything in between, but in addition to that I leaned so much more into the women themselves than I ever thought I would, and I took so much more from, like, their strength and their resilience and some of their stories and their faith.
[00:16:37] Like, I just saw these women more deeply, in a much more meaningful way after I started going through my own stuff. Because I started to realize that we all have stuff, and motherhood doesn't stop. And so that started to almost be this theme that I certainly didn't set out to figure out. I just thought I would find, interview 30 women with these successful kids who are now adults, and we all know their names: Steph Curry, Lady Gaga, and Lin-Manuel Miranda.
[00:17:04] I'm like, if I interview 30 of those folks, their moms, like, could I find a thread or a common theme? That was all I wanted. And I do that, but it takes on, obviously now, a much deeper meaning with everything I've been through. And so now when I go, and I talk to women, and I talk to these groups, and I go home at night, and I'm, I look at this hot pink book by my bed, it's just- it's like, oh my God. And a new show? It's insane. But it feels like I don't wanna say that he's up there orchestrating things, but I do feel like Uche and Grandma are up there. Like, if there is a way for them to orchestrate things, if that is possible-
[00:17:46] he would do it. I feel like we just don't know, which is part of the pain of losing someone, is that you believe that you feel them, and you feel their presence, and you wanna know, but you kinda ultimately don't know.
[00:18:00] You just have to trust. And so I believe that there, if there is any way to be there, we would do it for our families and help them make things happen, or go up to God and say, "Listen, they've been through enough. Let's try to make the..." if there was any way for him to do that, he would be doing it, and it feels like- that is what's happening. So I can't prove it. It's almost like I wish I could turn the lights out. It's so funny. I'm such a weirdo about things. Like, when people talk about, like, "Are you afraid of ghosts or spirits or all those things?" I used to be like, "Oh, no." Now I'm like, "Come." Like... I won't be scared.
[00:18:37] Like, just let me know you're okay. But short of that, I do feel like all the blessings that have happened over the last year and all of the good things in the midst of my pain have been so amazing that it just seems very odd that all these things happen in seven months. I mean, a new show on the network with my name on it and a number one, New York Times bestselling book and, like, all of these things that have happened even behind the scenes.
[00:19:04] It's hard to believe that it all just kinda happened. And so it brings me comfort in some ways.
[00:19:11] Lindsay: That's... One of my friends was talking about a book that a friend gave her when she lost her brother, called Signs.
[00:19:19] Sheinelle: I- Someone did... She's one of our contributors. Anyway, she gave me that book.
[00:19:25] I haven't read it yet, but-
[00:19:27] Lindsay: But it's about that. It's just about-
[00:19:29] Sheinelle: Really?
[00:19:29] Lindsay: Yeah. And it's about, I think, I have not read it. I think it's an example of those things and how, yes, lean in. That is that. That is what you're feeling, or what you're, that, that is very much that those signs are everywhere.
[00:19:44] What that says to me, though, about you is it's really all about connection. Like, and actually it makes me think, this is when you're talking about it, in the lens of your grandma and Uche and what, what has been brought to you now, it's kind of like you have such a power for connection with people- helping people connect. And so much of what this book is, as you said- the thread that you're finding.
[00:20:10] Also, with the new show, not to get in the weeds, X's and O's of the job stuff, but like you have a platform that is- yeah... so elevated- that is, that your power to connect and to reach people
[00:20:24] having learned all this wisdom- yes. through these women, but also going through-
[00:20:29] Sheinelle: Yes ...
[00:20:30] Lindsay: Loss in such a profound way. yeah. I'm just, yeah.
[00:20:35] Sheinelle: I think you're right. I think it gives me, and I didn't know it then, but I think, again, a few months in now, I think it gives me a sense of calm that I didn't know I had before.
[00:20:49] I mean, I'm still kind of crazy and ah, and I like fun, and I'm, I can't sit still to save my life. Like, I'm still that. But when it's time to actually absorb information or hear what somebody is saying, my empathy meter is off the charts. And so that part of me has been sharpened, and I feel it, and I see it happening in real time, and it feels bigger than me in many ways.
[00:21:15] Lindsay: Awesome. So in terms of Through Mom's Eyes, there are so many different things to pull from. I mean, it was like, ugh, talking about being present with kids.
[00:21:28] And that starts right from the beginning with Lady Gaga's mom. But- I just, I was like, this, that is such, what everyone needs to know and to...
[00:21:38] It sounds so simple. It sounds so simple. But what did you learn in terms of that and just, and maybe just also from your journey, your experience?
[00:21:47] Sheinelle: If there is a common thread with all of these women, if I were to tell you, I can tell you what Steph Curry's mom, Lin-Manuel Miranda, Lady Gaga, Matthew McConaughey, Venus and Serenus- Serena Williams, Carrie Underwood, Thomas Rhett, like, if I could tell you there's something that all their mothers did that I noticed- yeah
[00:22:08] Wouldn't you lean in? Oh, yeah. Like, wouldn't you say, "Well, well, tell me." I mean, and again, that certainly doesn't mean that we're gonna raise the next NBA player, or that doesn't mean that we're gonna raise the next rock star. But I do think there are things that we can learn from these women, right? And I will say that one of them, one of the traits that I've noticed, is their power of being present.
[00:22:29] And not all the time, because most of them were working moms, some of them were single moms, a lot of them were married, so it's not that they had to be their child's end-all,l be-all 24.7, And a lot of my influence comes from my grandmother, and that means that my mom was working, right? So it's not just from the mom, which is why I talk to grandmothers and aunts and Sunday school teachers.
[00:22:50] I try, I hope that it's for anyone who finds themself- in front of a child. But the power of being present makes such a difference, and leaning into your child's passion and having a conversation with your child. It's not gonna be every day, but when Lin-Manuel's jumping up and down with a tape recorded, and she's at work, and then Shakespeare steps in, and he's, like, singing musicals or whatever, there's something there when he's tiny.
[00:23:13] We just had LaKeith Stanfield today. He's an actor. He was in Get Out. He's been in a couple other things, but he's an actor, right? And he commented today on the show that when he was little, before his mom would go to church, she would have wigs, and he would sometimes, like, put them on and play characters or whatever.
[00:23:32] That's not li- And she said sometimes she would laugh and, like, would give him another... she leaned in a little bit and thought it was funny. But again, like, sometimes kids show you who they are decades before, and I found that with people who are in the science field or...
[00:23:49] And so I think, listen, we don't always know what we're gonna do when we're 10 or 11, but sometimes there are passions there that we can, we have the power to fuel, and even, I talk about how, a couple of stories with my grandmother. I remember telling her, at first I told her I wanted to be a beautician, and she was like, "Oh, okay."
[00:24:08] And then, and then I said, "I wanna be a fashion coordinator." And my mom was like, "Oh my gosh, that's amazing." And my mom, like, would let me go in her closet and pick out outfits, and I just thought it was the coolest thing. But my grandmother didn't really. And then I remember telling her, "I wanna be a news anchor."
[00:24:22] And she was like, "Ooh And I wonder now, like, would I have done this if her eyes didn't light up the way they did? And then I remember she lingered. She was like, "Okay, so how would you do that?" And I was in fifth grade, and I'm like, "Well, I'd have to read a lot, read newspapers. I'd have to be kind.
[00:24:44] I'd have to be curious. I'd have to connect with people-," all the things. And we ... And I remember by the time, as soon as I was old enough, she made a phone call to this lady at my church who was a secretary at the CBS affiliate. "Can Sheinelle get an internship?" Or something like that, and she helped me get an internship.
[00:25:00] I was in high school in the special program, and I would go in my cheerleading skirt after the games, running teleprompter for the evening anchors in Wichita. I mean, she really helped. They say what you think about, you bring about. Like, she helped me make that happen. She believed in that dream of mine.
[00:25:18] So again, could I have been here without it? Maybe, but I had eight internships by the time I applied for my first job. I mean, I wanted it for so long. I was always in the newsroom. We set this goal where every summer I was in a newsroom since sophomore year in high school. And then even, like freshman year in c- high s- college, I went back to the NBC affiliate, and then my sophomore year I cold-called BET and worked at BET News.
[00:25:46] I mean, every summer-
[00:25:48] Lindsay: Cold called them?
[00:25:48] Sheinelle: I was ... I did.
[00:25:49] Lindsay: When, how'd you do that?
[00:25:51] Sheinelle: I mean, I was in hi- I was in college. I didn't know any better. I found the 1-800 number on their website and just called it.
[00:25:56] Lindsay: Wait. And they ...
[00:25:57] Sheinelle: Yeah.
[00:25:59] Lindsay: So 'cause they ... That was, like, back in the day, too.
[00:26:02] Sheinelle: People don't do that, remember?
[00:26:03] Lindsay: Yeah.
[00:26:03] Yes, but it probably said, "Don't," so this is so funny though. My first job out of college, I literally cold-called- I sent an application for this video journalist program at CNN, and then it said, "Don't call us. We will let you know." And I don't know why, at that time I was like, "No, I'm gonna follow up and call," and I called.
[00:26:23] And when I called, this man was like, "Well, I've got the applications on my desk. Hold on." I swear to God, had I not called, maybe, like, maybe he would have found them, but I know there were, like, 100, and he found mine in a stack, and it wasn't the top 10. It was somewhere down there. And, like, that's so crazy.
[00:26:43] Anyway, tangent
[00:26:44] Sheinelle: No, but that, but it's a g- it's a teachable moment, like I-
[00:26:47] Lindsay: Yeah ...
[00:26:48] Sheinelle: I don't know if it says do not call, sh- maybe you shouldn't, but I did. And again, I remember this guy named Patrick who answered the phone, and he goes, "When do you need the internship?" And it was like January, and I was like, "In June."
[00:26:58] And he goes, "Well, we don't pay." And I'm like, "That's okay." I remember my sister was at Howard Med School at the time, and so I stayed, I slept on her couch that summer and worked at Rainbow in the Mall... to make money. But my point was, like, every... So I was just grinding and doing it for so long, and I just think her advocacy and her presence with me just made such a difference. I tell the story about how I was in an advanced English class, and it was overcrowded, and so they asked-
[00:27:26] Lindsay: Oh.
[00:27:26] Sheinelle: Yeah ... some of our peers to go to the easier class, and I was like, "
[00:27:30] Lindsay: No." I love that story.
[00:27:31] Sheinelle: And
[00:27:31] Lindsay: it was your grandma who was like,
[00:27:33] Sheinelle: Yeah, we were, she would pick, she picked me up randomly from school that day in her Lincoln Continental, and I was bragging about how easy.
[00:27:39] Lindsay: I loved how you said it was champagne colored, 'cause that was one of the things I was like, "Oh, okay.
[00:27:43] No, I get it," keep going.
[00:27:44] Sheinelle: You can picture it. Yes. With my child, my child is an honor student in the back. She literally turned that big old Lincoln Continental around while I was in conversation about it. And I talk about it because how many times do we have our kids in the backseat and like, "Blah, blah, blah"- You know, we could just turn up the music.
[00:28:00] And I'm not saying that we have to listen all the time, but thank God she was listening that day. And she turned down, she, "What did you say? Wait, what did..." and turned the car around and went back into the school office, and she was like, "Get this g- what? Please." And the next day I was l- I remember the next day we tackled, we started talking about Beowulf back in AP English, and I'm like, "
[00:28:25] Lindsay: Dang it."
[00:28:27] But what's so funny about that is also how bold... that's what struck me about that part of the book was like, okay, she was so bold to do that, and she didn't consult with anyone. You're... this really made me think about my parenting because I'm like, I probably would've been like, "Oh, I don't like that.
[00:28:48] Let me go talk to my husband. Let me-"
[00:28:51] You know what I'm saying?
[00:28:51] Sheinelle: Like- that's a very good point. There was no collaboration ... in
[00:28:55] Lindsay: that. And that's like, that's a village, and that's, I thought that was really cool and…
[00:28:59] Sheinelle: I- Well, right. My mom didn't even know about that story. I just randomly remembered it and wrote about it, and then she read it in the book, and she was like, "What?"
[00:29:05] Lindsay: See? Right?
[00:29:07] Sheinelle: And- And my friends remember when I went to their class for the day. Getting all in it. I'm like, in writing this book, things were coming to me that I'm like, oh my God. They weren't big moments at the time, but when I was thinking about it, I'm like, maybe they were moments that- it's not the holiday, it's not the Easter, it's not the Thanksgiving, it's the random Tuesday when I'm blabbing in the backseat of a car,
[00:29:29] Lindsay: Oh, God, absolutely. Oh, that's so funny.
[00:29:32] Sheinelle: Yeah. There's another story where Wanda Durant- Kevin Durant's mom- they used to, they, they were tall. And I think we see basketball players now and we're like, "Oh my gosh," but sometimes it's not fun to be the tallest. And she talked about how she was kind of down and tired of always being in the back of the line and all the things.
[00:29:49] And so she went to the teacher, and she's like, "I think we tr- you should try putting the s- the tall kids in the front to go to recess," or wherever it was. Or maybe in the picture, let them sit down in the front. Like, let's shake it up a little bit. And she said she remembered him coming home with a little extra pep in h- in his step, and it's like, kudos to her. And she was busy; she was a single mom, and they talked about days when they were hungry, so all those other things were still happening, but she was still an advocate. She still heard him kind of complaining a little bit about feeling some kind of way, and she went to the teacher, and the teacher was like, "Sure, we'll put the tall kids in the front for the day," like, or whatever.
[00:30:22] Why not? And I remember there was another story with Lin-Manuel Miranda's mom. He was coming home from school, and he was so sad, and then she said something came in the mail or something from the school, and he was kind of like- freaking out about it, but whatever it was, her spidey sense was, she was like, "He doesn't like the school."
[00:30:41] But it was, apparently, like a really good school. So it's like, but you just suck it up 'cause he's in a really good school? And she's like, "No, I want him to be happy." And so she put him in another school, and she said it just changed everything. And then it was the holiday concert where she sat in the audience and saw him sing the song- and she knew that he had so much talent. But I do think, again, her spidey sense was up. You've gotta be, and but for that to be up, you do have to try to be present.
[00:31:07] Lindsay: What do you think that looks like, on a daily basis, and how do you try to do that in your life? Do you... 'Cause I was thinking, "Okay, how do I apply that?"
[00:31:15] I've, I think, put the phones down, not having them at the dinner table, not, 'Cause it's harder than it looks, right? Like- Oh,
[00:31:24] Sheinelle: I am- I am at the, I'm on the losing end of it. Like- You're- ... I always say for the parents who have y- a little bit younger, like your kids, like, you can manage it more.
[00:31:32] When they get older, you can know their passwords. Like, my toothpaste was already out of the tube. So parents who have kids who are my kids' age, we didn't know it then. We didn't know what you know now, and so we're having to try to go back and fix it when it's so hard now. So stay on the front end of it.
[00:31:48] But also to observe them in the wild. Like, to watch their friendship dynamics, and to watch, and I, there have been times where I've noticed, recently, that if one of my kids is having an issue, that they'll call me about it, sometimes even from school or at a group or whatever, and I'm thankful that they feel like they can call me about it.
[00:32:14] Yeah. And I've learned, especially with my older one, they don't necessarily need me to fix it. I've always tried to fix things, and I can't fix everything. They just need us to hear it, hear them. And I used to try to come up with examples so that they, my kids, would know that, "Oh, this happened to me, too."
[00:32:30] They hate that, so now I've learned to try to just, I give it to them sometimes. Other times I just try to, and I don't get it right every day. But I also have been, I've been trying to let my conversations linger to where it's a bit uncomfortable for me. Just one extra step, 'cause I'm just, I'm just going, and I don't- yeah.
[00:32:50] linger. But I've been trying to let the conversations linger just where it's almost a beat too long. 'Cause sometimes that's where the magic happens.
[00:32:58] Lindsay: Wait, can you give me an example?
[00:33:01] Sheinelle: Yeah. I can give you some sad ones, and I can give you easy ones. A sad one was, we were in the kitchen, and I was with one of the kids, and we were talking about soccer or something, and then, I mean, just all the other things.
[00:33:16] And then it was just like-, and that's when I normally would exit or change the subject, but I let it be silent. And he said, "I feel like since, I feel like our life now is like, feel like it's like ADBC." And I'm like, "Yeah, did you learn about that in school? Before Christ," or whatever. And he goes, "No, before cancer, after death." Right. And I was like, "Oof." And I took a breath, and I remember I was, like, about to cry, and I was like, and I was like, I do too. I think so too." And then we started talking about how things are different. That wouldn't have happened if I... And I was making kale.
[00:33:58] Like, if I had just done it, I would usually go back upstairs and then they... But I just kinda lingered a little bit. And then, I think Claire was having a problem with, like, one of the girls or something in a program that she was in or whatever, and she mentioned it one day, and I said, " Middle school's tough."
[00:34:16] Like, I, I just remember, and sometimes you don't need eight, nine people. Sometimes you just need the one, like, the one girlfriend that, like, you know- Yeah ... doesn't make you feel comfortable around. You don't have to worry; you just, sometimes you just need the one. And then something happened maybe a couple of weeks later, and she called me in the midst of whatever was happening. And I was- where was I? Oh, I was at a book event, and we were in between events, and I had a crappy signal. I was in a hotel, and I said, "Can you hold on for a second?" And I remember, like, walking around the hotel trying to get to a place where it wasn't staticky so that I could be present.
[00:34:56] And we just stayed on the phone a little bit, and I said, "Hey, I'm gonna be home a little bit later, but you know what? Go find the one that, like, makes you feel good. Like, go find the one that's like... And that friend won't even, that other friend won't even notice what you're doing, but go, oh, those."
[00:35:10] Lindsay: Yeah ...
[00:35:10] Sheinelle: It's just, I've tried to slow down a little bit
[00:35:15] Lindsay: I wonder about the best ways to do that sometimes, right?
[00:35:19] Sheinelle: And it- It's hard. I, and look, what do I know? I don't know. I tried to approach it from, like, the journalist perspective and, like, to do the research, and so that's where I'm in the phase of, like, well, this is what I've learned.
[00:35:31] Let's go try it in the wild and see if it works. Yeah. Some things won't work, and all of our kids are different. Some of our kids don't want to have these conversations, and some of them do. Yeah.
[00:35:41] Lindsay: Or it's funny because sometimes, on the way, if I'm able to pick up a kid or kids from school, they wanna play music right away in the car, 'cause that's kinda just what their routine is, part of their routine.
[00:35:55] And it's like you want to, sometimes I'm like, I want, naturally, I wanna be like, "Okay, so how was the day? Da, da, and I know that's just not the thing to do. It's just not. It's never-
[00:36:05] Sheinelle: I know. But you know what, though? With that said-
[00:36:08] Lindsay: Yeah ...
[00:36:09] Sheinelle: Like, to this day- my, like, some of my favorite videos on my phone are when I'm like, "Okay, if you want music, then I'm putting it on," and it would be like stupid stuff.
[00:36:19] Like, not stupid, but it would be like Moana or like The Lion King, and we're all like singing it, and now I have these videos where we're all like belting it out, and EJ's like so annoyed. He was so worried that I was gonna turn my kids into, I don't know, theater kids. I'm like, "Guess what?
[00:36:35] They like musical theater." "Claire loves it, so yeah, we're singing Hamilton." And then you like to turn on Afrobeats and be like, "Listen to this. This is what you're gonna like," I love it. And they love that too, dude. I love it. But like, those are some of my favorites, so be easy on yourself. Like, a moment where you're all belting it out, and they're like, "You don't know that song."
[00:36:54] "Yes, I do." Those are moments too.
[00:36:57] Lindsay: Right. You know what that is.
[00:36:57] Sheinelle: Moment is? It's almost like when you're the reporter, if you go in with the questions already mapped out, it's a better interview than when you just kinda go and see, feel the temperature of the person,n and ask the follow-ups and kinda don't know where it's going.
[00:37:09] Lindsay: Totally go with the flow.
[00:37:10] Sheinelle: So that works with the kids too.
[00:37:11] Lindsay: Yeah. What, so what did you learn through your research with these women about the work-life balance of it all? And I feel like that is such a cliché, but just- it is.
[00:37:21] Sheinelle: But it's true, though.
[00:37:22] Lindsay: It is. And so many of these women are just real badass women who had to; some of them work more than one job.
[00:37:29] Sheinelle: Yes. Like- I didn't know that Steph Curry's mom had a Montessori school.
[00:37:33] Lindsay: Yeah, right?
[00:37:34] Sheinelle: It's like an hour and some change away each way.
[00:37:37] Lindsay: Yeah.
[00:37:37] Sheinelle: Yeah. Like, how are you managing the school and those students? And now that we know how that would even work, to have to manage all the kids and then taking them, and then this one's playing basketball, and this one's doing this, and you're running a school. Or, and then on the other end of the spectrum, I really admire Lucille O'Neill because she talked about how it's never too late to look in the mirror and pivot a little bit. She got her degree in her 40s. And so I will say most of them have said that they are happy that they...
[00:38:11] Or they would... Make sure you pour into yourself along the way. It almost sounds kinda cheesy.
[00:38:15] Lindsay: Right. No, but I think that's so important. I loved that theme.
[00:38:18] Sheinelle: Yeah. You can't... And also, your kids see you doing that too, and it doesn't necessarily mean your career. But like, I have all these paints that I, 'cause I, I like to paint.
[00:38:28] I just haven't really had time, and I remember, one year EJ surprised me and got all these, like, canvases and the oils and all the things. And I like the fact that the kids can see that Mom has th- it has nothing to do with my job, but she wants to learn how to paint. Like, it's okay. We can still take on new things.
[00:38:46] That was part of the reason why I ran the marathon. It was like, I want- yeah... wanted Claire to see that, yeah, we can be athletic too. I like to dance, don't get me wrong, but like we can do the hard thing. I think we can... So when we're giving it to ourselves, we're also modeling it for them, I think.
[00:39:00] Lindsay: I love the story, well, not the story, but the fact that Kevin Durant's mom was sharing about how she really realized too, once he really made it, that she was pouring into her kids and needed to, to find herself again.
[00:39:15] Sheinelle: She was, she said she was hiding behind them.
[00:39:16] Lindsay: Hiding. That's what she said. yeah.
[00:39:17] Sheinelle: Yeah.
[00:39:18] Lindsay: Yeah, and I think, I mean, oh my gosh, if that's not a thing that happens to so many- oh... women, I'm sure men too in some ways maybe, but like, yeah, that, it made me wanna know, okay, so how, like, yeah.
[00:39:32] Sheinelle: Right. And so if a woman is telling you that, and so many women are telling you that, then we gotta listen, and we just have to figure out w- what we do with that information, but we can't just take that information and not, like, at least try to
[00:39:45] figure out what we do with that, right? Right. I say that, and I'm like, "Did my mom read a book about raising me? I don't think so." I don't know. But I think times have changed, and when you know better, you do better, so you know. But I am, it fascinated me. It's like the juxtaposition of that, being careful not to wish it away.
[00:40:06] Gronk's mom, Diane- I feel she, I mean, she was moved to tears, like, when I talked to her about, as busy as it is, I can't even imagine. I mean, my life is so busy, but five boys? Like, oh my gosh, and how much do they eat and all the things. Yeah. And yet she got so teary when she talked about the fact that she misses it. It's like, yeah, she misses it. The only mom that said- Venus and Serena's mom was like, "Oh, no, I don't miss it. This what, this is what I did. I launched them out. They're doing good," and we laughed about it. But for the most part, women miss; they miss it, and so you don't wanna wish it away.
[00:40:41] You're so busy, "Oh my God, I can't wait till they get out of these diapers." And then it's, "Oh my gosh, I'm so tired of Goldfish all in the backseat of my car." Or I have moody teenagers, "Oh my gosh, I'm so tired of these moody teenagers," And before you know it, they've graduated and they're out of the house, and then the house is quiet.
[00:40:56] So...
[00:40:56] Lindsay: Do you find, in your job, 'cause I think that this is real- this is absolutely something I've experienced- where it's this really fine line of people that will say, like me doing freelance now and not being tied to one set place, there are pros and cons, no question. And there are days that I'm like, "God, like I want something much more consistent."
[00:41:22] And then there are times where I don't have to answer to a schedule, and it's like, "Wow, I'm so glad that I can be at this thing."
[00:41:29] But then I, like, I really struggled for a while with people that would be like, "Oh," and this sounds so horrible, but like, "Well, you've got the kids." Yeah. And they are, like, my heart.
[00:41:41] They- Yeah ... My family is my priority. That will never change. But that-
[00:41:46] Sheinelle: Totally ...
[00:41:47] Lindsay: Someone saying that and like that struck such a nerve with me- on the driven person that, do you know what I mean?
[00:41:55] Sheinelle: Of course I know what you mean.
[00:41:57] Lindsay: Yes. Like, so, like, where is that? Like, how do you... I still am always like, I don't...
[00:42:03] It's such a tricky thing. I know. It's not like you ever find an answer to it. It's just you're-
[00:42:08] Sheinelle: It's so tricky, but you have to tell yourself that this is the season. I mean, I look at my, at Kyan, and he's about to be a junior. In two years, if all goes as planned, he's in college somewhere. Or... And I think about my life now, the twins are about to be in ninth grade, so in four years I'm by myself. And so then, sure. And so just now, I think, what I've learned is if there's a way to continue to manage it, so that you don't just pop up 10 years from now and be like, "Oh my gosh, what am I doing?"
[00:42:47] But just know that, and I don't know if the grass is greener because there are women who did it and they plowed through and they're like, "Oh my gosh, but I wish I could have gone to the meeting," or, "I wish I could have volunteered for that group." So I kinda feel like there's no one right way, and I also think that everything can't take center stage at the same time, right?
[00:43:06] Like, and so some days I am all in, I'm trying to be mom of the year, and other days I am, I have to lean into my career. It's what I care about. It's what I wanna nurture. Some days I need to travel for this trip. Other days... You know what I mean? And so I think from shifting the gears is the only way I know, the only way I know forward.
[00:43:26] My sister, she's having her fourth baby now. She was a teacher. She wants to be all in with the kids, and she loves it. She's s- it's, and so we are different in that way. We both love our kids, but s- some of us just need different things, right? And so she wants to be there. She wants to be at the pickup.
[00:43:47] She wants to do... It fulfills her. It feeds her. And so I think whatever fuels- yeah... your fire- that's what you follow, not the voices.
[00:43:58] Lindsay: It's fascinating. Yeah. What is the thing no one tells you that you have realized along the way, along your journey?
[00:44:08] Sheinelle: I mean, I think people have said it; we just don't really get it, and that is, like, the little things just do not matter.
[00:44:14] They just don't matter. I think when you've had the kind of loss that I have experienced, even I have to make myself sometimes still care about things, especially in the beginning. It's like, Small talk, or, I think that's why conversations become more meaningful, or paperwork.
[00:44:38] It's really hard to get me to care about paperwork- ... because I see what happens. It's like it just, it's, it's just the little thi-... Or, if my kids are having a day and they don't wanna go to school, I probably before would've been like, "No." Now I'm like, "Are you having a day?
[00:44:55] Okay, 'cause I'm having a day too. We're gonna be home today." And you know what? It is okay. It's a little different- yeah... when you're a sophomore, but when you're in seventh grade, and you're in sixth grade, or you're in fourth grade, and you're having a day, it's okay. That's one thing that I feel like I've learned.
[00:45:10] And also to do the thing. Uche had this thing that he was doing before he got, right before he got diagnosed, where he and my daughter were visiting all the neighborhoods of New York and checking them off and finding restaurants they like in New York, and what do you like? And he, with my little guy, he was, they were doing photography and they were taking pictures and, with another child he was doing, we're going to museums.
[00:45:33] And like these were just things that they enjoyed doing. Now, thank God they have the pictures;s, they have those memories, so you do the thing. I do this thing with the kids where we do mommy dates, and I have pictures from when they were tiny and one-on-one. And I wanted to put pictures with it, but I guess that would be a different kind of book.
[00:45:54] But, like taking my little guy to a diner and like when the crumbs from the corn muffin are all over, I don't have to clean up the floors, so eat away. And I have pictures of crumbs all over his face. Yeah. I'm so happy for those mommy dates, so you do the things that matter.
[00:46:10] That, to me, that's what matters.
[00:46:15] Lindsay: Is there... How are the kids doing? I know that's like a loaded question, but-
[00:46:19] Sheinelle: It is a very loaded question. I think they're like me.
[00:46:22] Now they are. They say grief is like a wave, and so I try to think of it that way. So moments where I'm really just so debilitatingly sad.
[00:46:33] I don't even know if that's a word. Yeah. Sometimes I'll allow myself to feel it because I've heard that, like, there's some kind of science to emotions, like deep, heavy emotion like that shouldn't technically last. Like it sh- it should come, but then it passes, and so far they do pass. And so that way now when they come, I, I don't mind running from it because it usually will subside.
[00:46:55] It doesn't mean my grief goes anywhere, but at least that intensity goes away. And so I think we all have those certain moments. But I also will be honest with you: I think it's gotten harder. I thought a year would be easier. I know for me personally-
[00:47:13] I'm in the hardest phase so far.
[00:47:15] And I don't know why. I don't know if it's the finality of it. I don't know if it's now all of these things are happening, and you're not here. I feel like it sucks. It's not fair. Yeah. It's just, it's... when you're in it, especially something like a cancer diagnosis, and we were in chemo and all those things, you're just in like fight-or-flight mode for so long, and you're just trying to make everything happen.
[00:47:40] But eventually, all of those things start to settle, and you're just left with the truth, which is, I always say, I don't plan on writing another book anytime soon, but if I ever did, I would call it Sunday Morning, because Sunday mornings are the hardest. That's when everything is still, and I'm by myself in this king-size bed, and you're not there, and I can't believe it.
[00:48:02] I can't believe it or…
[00:48:05] Lindsay: Yeah ...
[00:48:06] Sheinelle: You get a call that you're on the New York Times bestseller list, number one. He would've been either there or the first call or... And then Grandma's not there either. It's like my two go-to people aren't here to celebrate the things that have been, like, some of the biggest changes in my life.
[00:48:20] And so it's that I'm navigating life without the foundation that I've always known.
[00:48:27] Lindsay: Yeah.
[00:48:27] Sheinelle: One of my girlfriends reminded me, and I'd forgotten about this, that he helped me make my resume tape for my very first job. I was at Northwestern News Network. And he also made my reel for NBC.
[00:48:41] Lindsay: He did?
[00:48:43] Sheinelle: Yeah. 'Cause I could not, I used to do tape-to-tape, which in the TV world, you have two tapes.
[00:48:47] Lindsay: Oh, yeah.
[00:48:48] Sheinelle: And you, like, you edit from one.
[00:48:50] Lindsay: You hit the two buttons and you.
[00:48:52] Sheinelle: And that sound. You bring up the sound, you bring it down. Like, but by the time we got into the new age, I didn't know how to edit digitally, and I didn't... I was making this tape and I didn't wanna make a big deal about it. Yeah. And so, and I remember at the time he was like, "Well, you need more, like, international stuff and you need more of this, you need more of that." And so he would, like, watch the show. I was in Philly at the time, and he made my reel.
[00:49:16] So it's like he's... I was 19, and that's the thing, I think, my situation is pretty unique in that I didn't date. I didn't... We'll do chats on the show about, like, dating or- yeah... I didn't have that. I was 19.
[00:49:34] Lindsay: Yeah.
[00:49:34] Sheinelle: I'm 48.
[00:49:37] Lindsay: And he really was, like, your biggest champion, but also- yeah
[00:49:41] he was always such a big part of you, he's your cheer- your cheerleader.
[00:49:46] Sheinelle: Yeah. They say, like, sometimes your spouse is your... You see yourself in someone's reflection. You don't realize that's how you see who you are. It's reflected in other people. And also, somebody mentioned this the other day.
[00:49:58] I can't remember who it was. Might have been Marlo Thomas. I can't remember. But it might have been Marlo, 'cause now I've, like, you meet other widows and you- you've become part of this club, and she lost Phil Donahue. I think it was Marlo that I was talking to, and she's like, "There's so many things that happen where it's just the two of you, like jokes or...
[00:50:18] There's no one to share that with anymore." Like, there's no one to be like, "Oh, my God, do you remember when..." So it's the weirdest thing, 'cause there's a huge chunk of my life, probably 25 years of it, where the only other person who would remember it is not here. Right. It's like, did that happen? I know it happened.
[00:50:38] And so it's just, it's really hard. It's really hard.
[00:50:45] Lindsay: Have you found nothing, like not something that replaces it, but just a, a way that you fill that space that now- when you can't, when you can't talk physically to Uche about something-
[00:51:02] Sheinelle: Yeah, you're... Right ...
[00:51:03] Lindsay: Or of course-
[00:51:05] Sheinelle: Well- ...
[00:51:06] Lindsay: him, but like...
[00:51:07] Sheinelle: I used to...
[00:51:08] Yeah, I used to tell my girlfriends, and I still do, and I still believe, like, God bless our husbands, but, like, the husband can't check all the boxes. Like, he can't be the one you talk to all the time, and he's romantic, and he's fun, and he likes to shop. Like... I think sometimes we want our spouses to, like, be these dream humans that, like, fill all our buckets, and I just have never thought that was the case, and so I have girlfriends who love to talk, so then, sometimes I'd come home, and he'd be like, "Why aren't you talking?"
[00:51:35] I'm like, "'Cause I'm all talked out." 'Cause somebody else wanted to have the conversation or whatever it is. And even for him, he was an athlete, right? I don't know soccer, but then the boys did. Thank goodness you guys went to all the World Cups, so
[00:51:47] yeah ... in some ways, I'm thankful that I had that kind of a setup because I still have another, he wasn't so...
[00:51:55] It wasn't like all my eggs were in his basket, where now it's like I don't have anybody to talk to and I don't have any friends. So I, my girlfriends are still there, and my friends who I have plenty of guy friends. We're just friends, so I- right... It's not... So that part of it is I'm okay, but there are some things that you just can't get back.
[00:52:17] Like I, as I said, it's not the holidays; it's the random Tuesday where it's a beautiful day in New York City, and you're- we're walking by one of the restaurants that we would've been like, "Ooh, let's just go in there."
[00:52:27] Lindsay: Yeah.
[00:52:28] Sheinelle: That, that sucks.
[00:52:29] Lindsay: Yeah.
[00:52:31] Sheinelle: That sucks.
[00:52:31] Lindsay: That does suck.
[00:52:32] Sheinelle: Yeah. And it's, I'm
[00:52:37] I can find all the "But I got this, and I got that, and the silver lining, I can do that. But it also sucks, so I can hold both, and I can be honest about it. And what I've learned now: women who have been in my shoes, they've reached out to me, and they call me and they're like, "Thank you for just being honest about it."
[00:52:58] Like, it's not, this is insane. It's really- yeah. And also not having someone to bounce ideas off. Like, if this child is doing this or that, like, not saying, like, having somebody to be like, "What should we do?" Or to share the load. Like, having kids is stressful
.[00:53:17] Lindsay: Right. Right
[00:53:19] Sheinelle: Sometimes I real- I didn't realize it until now; I would just tell him, and then he would take it on, and then I think I released it, 'cause I knew he would handle it.
[00:53:27] Or he could hold it, and then-
[00:53:30] Lindsay: Yeah, or at least hold it with you. Right. And then there's that thing. Right. That is…
[00:53:35] Sheinelle: So it's just so, from allergies, oh my gosh, you had peanuts, what? Now we gotta go to the ER, and you need an EpiPen. From that to the bigger things, like, I don't, I still don't understand offsides.
[00:53:48] I'm sorry. I've been going to your games since you were four. I don't understand offsides in soccer. Like,
[00:53:54] Lindsay: I just- I just got what you...
[00:53:57] Sheinelle: Don't know offsides. I can't... Don't try to explain it to me.
[00:54:01] Lindsay: We can get you where you need to be.
[00:54:03] Sheinelle: Okay.
[00:54:04] Lindsay: With that. But it really is amazing how, given all that, and all that I know is a very,heavy lift, all that you are also doing and accomplishing and doing also for, like, your family, but also the greater good.
[00:54:21] It is really amazing.
[00:54:23] Sheinelle: Thank you.
[00:54:25] Lindsay: I know. You're the best. Thank you, Sheinelle
[00:54:28] Sheinelle: Well, thank you. This is, I mean, I could talk to you for hours.
[00:54:31] Lindsay: I mean, and before I let you go, like, is there anything that you learned from this book that- that really struck you, that we haven't talked about, that you think-
[00:54:38] Sheinelle: I just, I really hope that people will...
[00:54:42] It's one thing to ask someone to buy it, and they're like, to support me. Yeah. It's another thing to read it and try to open your heart and try to find what speaks to you, and maybe it will speak to someone in a way that I didn't even know maybe that it could. Yeah. That's my hope. I've been through so much, and I rode it through a storm in the end, and I really wrote it.
[00:55:02] Like, there are times where I would be in the car, and the kids would be at the field, and I would be talking into my notes section 'cause I had an idea. Or I'd wake up in the morning, and I'd be in the shower, and I would get out of the shower to, like, write something down. Like, I know exactly where I was when I wrote this book.
[00:55:17] And so, I really did try to check all the boxes, whether it's, I come from a blended family. My mom's been divorced twice. I will try to talk about that. And- Wow ... I tried to make it as comprehensive as possible so that I could reach as many people as possible. So I really just hope that people will open their hearts and maybe buy it for someone, and- if they don't wanna read, let them listen to it.
[00:55:39] But I just hope that it's, it, can, my pie in the sky dream is like, it, it's not a what to expect when you're expecting, but it just helps to sometimes have somebody to tell you that you're not alone and to like, "I see you, and listen, this is, I'm in it too, and we're all trying to figure it out, and we're all just trying to do the best we can and not mess them up."
[00:55:57] And you just ultimately wanna help them reach their full potential, whatever that looks like. Whatever that looks like. You want a happy kid, and you want a happy adult. There's no use in having all the success in the world if they're not happy. And so how do you foster that innate joy?. How do you foster that innate, that grit, and to thatI I teach them to listen to their own voice and to follow their own passions.
[00:56:30] You just, you want the best for them. We all do. And so I just am trying to do my part to try to run and ask a bunch of moms and then tell you what I learned.
[00:56:41] Lindsay: It's great. Yeah, and to foster that belief. I think that's one of the things when I think about me, my mom, my dad too, but just in some way they like...
[00:56:52] Oh, I always felt like anything was possible. Yeah. Which is silly sometimes, like some of the things I probably thought were possible.
[00:56:58] Sheinelle: Yeah.
[00:56:59] Lindsay: But you know, there's, you can't manufacture that. It's gotta be- yeah... h- like instilled in you.
[00:57:06] Sheinelle: Yeah. And so I hope.
[00:57:07] Lindsay: So ...
[00:57:09] Sheinelle: That I'm not just preaching to the choir of the women who think this is our thing.
[00:57:13] I hope I reach some women who are thinking, who maybe weren't thinking about it, and they're like, "You know what? Okay." And they have a bit more patience for that little guy or that little one at home, or maybe have the conversation, "Have you thought about what you wanna be one day?" Or, I just hope I can bring...
[00:57:28] Because before this job, the very first job I had, I managed a nursery. I'd have, like, at a fancy health club, I'd have like two or three- oh, my gosh ... four swings going at the same time. And I swear to goodness, Lindsay, that these moms- I can't prove it- but there's no way they were working out for four hours.
[00:57:43] I feel like it's because I was so good at it. Swear it. I know it. I know the layout of the gym. I know the layout of the place, and I just know it 'cause I'm like, "There's no way."
[00:57:55] Lindsay: Well, where'd they go? They just left? They go to lunch?
[00:57:57] Sheinelle: They go shopping. I was a great babysitter, nanny. I did. I had everybody's kids, and they loved being with me.
[00:58:04] I would have toddlers. I'd have babies. I would have to call and get some other teenagers to come join me. Like I, you know- Oh, my God ... Those were the best years of my life, but I could change a diaper to this day. If we had a stopwatch, oh, I- Yeah. 'Cause I just... It was like I was eating everybody's chicken nuggets and watching The Little Mermaid on VHS.
[00:58:23] Like, it was just my world being everybody's babysitter. I was everybody's nanny in high school. And so, even in college, I would go back and nanny. So I just, I love kids. I love seeing them and the potential that they have. I just love kids, and so in many ways, this is my love letter to moms, and I hope I can help kids.
[00:58:45] Lindsay: Yeah. What do you think Uche would say about the final product?
[00:58:50] Sheinelle: Well, he read it. He saw it, right. The only thing he did not want was for me to talk about him. He was like, "No." I even tried right before the publication date to... I said, "Look, I won't talk about cancer, but I think we do need to at least acknowledge that this has been a challenging time."
[00:59:06] I'm like, "I can't write a book about motherhood and not talk about the biggest challenge to my life." Yeah. And he was like, " No." So then when he passed, I was worried about it; I wanted to honor him with that,
[00:59:20] Lindsay: Yeah.
[00:59:21] Sheinelle: And so I made the book adjacent, and it was to tell everybody, "Listen, when you had your first brain surgery, you were the one that told me I had to keep writing or I wouldn't have," Or... So I felt like at least if I'm gonna talk about him, it needs to be book adjacent and how he impacted the book. It wouldn't have existed without him. And so I felt like when I made that New York Times list, I just felt like he was there. I just feel like- amazing... even the show and all the things I do, I feel it.
[00:59:53] Lindsay: Thank you.
[00:59:53] Sheinelle: Yeah.
[00:59:54] Lindsay: One more thing.
[00:59:56] This is what we do. We do this with each of our guests.
[00:59:58] Sheinelle: Okay.
[00:59:59] Lindsay: What is the thing that you must have, either TV life, everyday life, or otherwise?
[01:00:09] Sheinelle: Ooh. The thing I must have
[01:00:16] On the daily is this like a food or a habit or a-
[01:00:22] Lindsay: Anything
[01:00:25] Sheinelle: I must have... Okay, in the heady space, I need 10 m- 10 minutes in the morning.
[01:00:33] Like, kind of a non-negotiable. I breathe, I can do the Calm app, I can do the... But before I start my day, I need 10 minutes. Like-
[01:00:42] Lindsay: Like at home, before.
[01:00:43] Sheinelle: At home, before the voices, before, I need 10 minutes, and that kind of gets my day going, right? If there were no such thing as, like, calories, I would really like chai lattes with oat milk.
[01:00:59] But I like them; they really make me happy. But I,
[01:01:04] I don't drink coffee, and so I notice that when I do have the drink that I want every day, I look like Snuffleupagus by the end of the week. And so.. I can't do the thing that I love. I wish I liked, like, coffee straight, or I don't even know what you call it,'cause I don't even like coffee.
[01:01:18] Lindsay: Yeah.
[01:01:18] Sheinelle: But- I try to have something that I can do every morning 'cause I love the smell of it. I like how people, like, go to Starbucks. I like, like, I love that thought of, like, having a cup of something every morning, but the things that I love don't love me back in that way. So if there were no such thing as that, a chai tea latte with oat milk would just be, it's like a hug from heaven for me.
[01:01:38] Lindsay: I love it.
[01:01:39] Sheinelle: Yeah.
[01:01:39] Lindsay: Sheinelle, thank you. Thank you.
[01:01:40] Sheinelle: Congratulations. You're, like,
[01:01:42] Lindsay: So the best.
[01:01:44] Sheinelle: You're the best.
[01:01:46] Lindsay: There is so much I took from that conversation, and I'm so grateful to Sheinelle for being so open. And by the way, sometimes, you know, when you have those friends who you're like, not only are they just amazing humans, but they're really great at what they do, but then also they can dance like nobody's business?
[01:02:03] She can also sing. I love watching her. Like, sometimes when I'm just watching the Today Show and she's there with her colleagues, I'm just like, she's just always so real, and I love that. But oh my God, if I could have an ounce of her dance moves, I would be set. What I really love, though, from her conversation is a couple of things I wanted to highlight.
[01:02:22] Motherhood and ambition, that they don't have to be either/or. God, I feel like right now I'm living that, that version. It's like there's always gotta be something that you're sacrificing when you're at that decision point of what you're about to embark on or do. But I really enjoyed hearing her perspective on that, and the fact that maybe not everything can take center stage simultaneously, but that you can be thoughtful and intentional about being the best version of yourself in both of those realms.
[01:02:51] I really believe that. And then also, I just thought of her description of grief, being able to live alongside joy, and how, like, growth and success and gratitude, those are things that can go along with a really hard time that you're dealing with. And I just, as she was sharing so much, I just thought, "My goodness, I'm so thankful to be able to bring this to you guys," and I'm sure that if there's someone out there dealing with loss, that you can certainly relate.
[01:03:18] So thank you, Sheinelle. Thank you for being here as a part of this Things No One Tells You community. We would love to hear from you. And as always, we would love it if, while you're listening, you'll rate, subscribe, review, like, all the things. And let us know what's on your mind, what you would like to hear more of.
[01:03:36] So for our show team- myself, Ashley, producer, Sarah, our brand manager, Sam, our editor- we wanna say thank you. Thanks for being here, and we hope that you'll join us next time on Things No One Tells You.