Highlights from the episode:
Why kids need to feel liked, not just loved
The lasting impact of middle school friendships
Creating a home where kids can truly be themselves
Helping kids navigate rejection and disappointment
The power of listening without trying to fix everything
Podcast show notes:
What do you do when your child isn't invited? When a friendship suddenly changes? Or when your middle schooler seems to want nothing to do with you? These are the parenting moments that don't always come with easy answers.
In this episode, I'm joined by my friend Bridget KerMorris, a parenting expert and mom of seven, to talk about the social and emotional challenges of raising middle schoolers.
Bridget shares why friendships at this age are an important training ground for relationships later in life, how to help kids process rejection without taking over, and why parents need to be mindful of their own childhood experiences when supporting kids.
We also explore the importance of making home a safe place, handling screen-time disagreements, and recognizing that sometimes listening matters more than offering advice.
What You’ll Hear:
The story behind So Glad It's You (07:21)
The truth about middle school friendships (15:59)
Questions that help kids understand their feelings (19:53)
Why curiosity can change screen-time battles (34:56)
Knowing when to talk and when to listen (36:34)
Bridget's advice offers a reassuring reminder that effective parenting isn't about getting every interaction right. It's about building the kind of relationship our kids can count on. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to Things No One Tells You, and share with a friend!
Mentioned in the episode
My previous episode with Bridget, What Our Kids Need More Than Rules https://www.lindsaycz.com/show-notes/bridget-kermorris-21
My interview with Sandra and Jalen Brunson: https://www.lindsaycz.com/show-notes/sandra-and-jalen-brunson-52
Check out more from Bridget KerMorris
Follow Bridget on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bridget.sogladitsyou/
Discover So Glad It's You platform: https://sogladitsyou.com
And listen in to So Glad It's You, the podcast: on Apple, https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/so-glad-its-you/id6820257689 or on Spotify, https://open.spotify.com/show/43oReTOfvmGsS3s0ys3YJI?si=d69d97fea2174cda
Be sure to subscribe to Things No One Tells You—Lindsay’s podcast all about the real, unfiltered conversations we don’t always have but should. From big names to everyday voices, each episode dives into the moments that shape us. Listen wherever you get your podcasts!
Follow along with Lindsay below!
Full Transcript
[00:00:00] Bridget: When a friend group drops you, that's our example, right? When a friend group drops you, that is sad and hard in the moment, but that's not what leaves the lasting impact. What's leaving that lasting impact is the meaning you made of it- okay... in middle school. And so that is what I don't think parents realize: how much influence, positive influence, and power, positive power, they have in these situations.
[00:00:26] So parents need to be really honest with themselves and do a little digging of their own in their internal world of, okay, when I have this moment where my kid doesn't get invited, I notice I get really upset and heated and worried for them. I know it's because my friend group dropped me in middle school.
[00:00:43] If you made meaning of your friend group dropping you by yourself without another adult to help you walk through it, then yes, like the wound you're carrying and the one that gets activated in those moments, the heat you're feeling, th- it's more about I'm not likable, right? I'm not, I'm someone that people leave, right?
[00:01:01] Something like that. And these stories get embedded, and we as adults push through. But I think we could name some of these stories that come up in our hardest moments, and we really worry that our kids are gonna feel that same pain. But I want parents to know it's not about the moment as much as it is about the story.
[00:01:21] Lindsay: Hello, TNOTY-ers. Thank you so much for being here for this episode of Things No One Tells You. All right, I wanna share a quick story. And first of all, I'm really looking forward to having this conversation because my friend Bridget KerMorris has joined me before on the podcast. She is a parent coach.
[00:01:39] She's a lawyer by trade. You might hear my dog walking in the background. He's just my little buddy here, so just ignore that. But anyway, I, as a mom of a middle schooler, as well as a 10-year-old, I just find her advice and insights so, so spot on, but here's what I wanted to share. So, I'm working this job that I'm loving with CBS Sports HQ, and I'm working nights.
[00:02:04] And so I've found that I have not mastered the balance at all, okay, coming home really late, getting up in the morning, 'cause what's most important to me is being able to make sure that I'm getting up with my kids and just spending that time. And anyway, I have found a hack. I am working on...
[00:02:21] I'm all about some great hair extensions if you have them, and I was like, "What would happen if I put these hair extensions in and then try to get two days out of it?" I probably shouldn't even be talking about this, but you can get an updo and then one day wear it down.
[00:02:35] So that's why my hair looks the way it does if you're watching this. But I'm actually kinda liking the flexibility, so I highly recommend the clip-ins. Anywho, I do think that there's a lot to talk about in the world of being a working mom, or if you are a mom who just has a lot of other obligations and you're just trying to balance all the things.
[00:02:57] So I feel as though I am right now struggling with learning the best way to nap, because... And in fact, my husband earlier said, "Can you just do yourself a favor and just make sure you're taking a nap before you go back to work?" And I'm like, "Sure." So, but I just am not; I'm not wired that way, so I'm trying all these different tactics.
[00:03:18] I have found a sleep mask that I love, that seems to also be helping. But anyway, so if anyone has any tips on that, I am all ears. That is not what this episode is about. It is a little bit about parenting and about raising good humans, also about giving ourselves grace and helping us have the best experience that we can as parents because it is so amazing anyway.
[00:03:43] But one thing I wanted to share is there is a teacher that I think about all the time, and especially when it's around this time of year, and it's like you got the pumpkin candles going and it's the holidays and warm fuzzy and there's all these school th- things to go to.
[00:04:01] But Miss Taylor was my son and my daughter's preschool teacher in the twos. And every single day, whenever I would be the one dropping off my kids, either one of them, Ms. Taylor would come to the door, and as you dropped your little child off at her classroom, she would literally just sort of scream at the top of her lungs, "Look, guys, Del's here.
[00:04:26] Del's here." And she would say it in a way that made every person that was inside that classroom turn around and be like, "Oh my gosh, they're here." And since that happened so many years ago- that was eight years ago at this point- I have just always remembered that feeling and been like, "I want to feel like Ms.
[00:04:47] Taylor made those kids feel when they walked into a classroom." I think that is the gift that we can give not only to friends and people in our lives, but certainly our kids, right? Just making them feel like we are so excited to see them. So Ms. Taylor left such a big impression. The reason that I mention that as I'm about to talk to my friend Bridget KerMorris is because Melvin at one point, maybe a year or two ago, said, "Hey, there's this woman that was on as a guest on the Today Show.
[00:05:18] You've got to check her out. I think she's got amazing insight." And he was really interested in what she had to say about her parents coaching middle schoolers, all that stuff, and just parenting in general. So that's how I first came to know her. She has agreed to just come on from time to time and talk about the things, and actually today we're gonna talk about friendships because I think that there is a lot of value that can come out of, okay, what can we be looking for?
[00:05:45] How can we help our kids, especially in these middle school years when they're going through different friendships, how that sets the foundation for the years ahead. But anyway, Bridget, she is a lawyer. She has a master's in marriage and family therapy, years of clinical work with adults, but she's also the mom of seven, okay, ages seven to 20, currently parenting her fourth middle schooler.
[00:06:10] She has been on all the shows, but she has just started a platform that actually made me think about Ms. Taylor when I heard about this. Her newest project is called So Glad It's You, and it's actually an online home for middle school parents, and it's a podcast that she also co-hosts with the co-founder Leah Anne Borrell.
[00:06:27] So they're talking about all the things. She's gonna explain a little bit more about this, but I'm just so excited to talk to my friend. Bridget, I see you. Can you see me? I can see you. You popped in at the perfect time.
[00:06:39] Bridget: I'm so sorry.
[00:06:41] Lindsay: Hi. Bridget, oh, thank you for joining me again. It's always so great to talk to you.
[00:06:46] Bridget: Hi, Lindsay. I'm so excited to be here.
[00:06:50] Lindsay: It's great. Also, I just wanna give a nod to what you have going on behind you, because those colors, I love them.
[00:06:56] Bridget: Someone's a seamstress. I'm gonna lean out of the frame so everyone can s- if anyone's watching, my mom's needlepoint.
[00:07:02] Lindsay: It's your mom. This is amazing.
[00:07:03] Yeah. It's like your mom's kind of craft and amazing things. No, this is so good to talk to you. So I was just sharing about So Glad It's You. Can you just- I wanna talk to you about a million things, but specifically around friendship, but can you just set the table first for our listeners, for our viewers, just about So Glad It's You?
[00:07:21] Bridget: Yes. This is a really new, exciting thing for me, and So Glad It's You is a new middle school parenting platform, and it's also a podcast by the same name, and I co-founded it with my dear friend and colleague Leah Anne Borrell. And she is a teacher. She's been a teacher for 25 years, and as I have a master's in marriage and family therapy, Stanford-trained lawyer, so I bring the parenting side.
[00:07:47] And we had this idea of covering a kid's whole day. So there's only so much parents can do with their kid at home, and of course, we, a lot of us l, love the schools our kids go to, and we interact with them. But Leah Anne is the person that I would call when I would complain about my kid's school, and she'd say, "Well, you know you can say this to the teacher, or you could talk to the administration," and she would actually help me draft emails.
[00:08:10] And I don't know. I, we just had this idea of, I think parents need to know they can really have more influence at school, and teachers super-duper wanna help kids. And so yeah, that was the idea behind it, and I will say the name So Glad It's You, so I, just to get sentimental for a moment and heartfelt, my dad passed away when I was 25, and he was this person whose face lit up whenever he saw me.
[00:08:36] He was just like my cheerleader, and obviously such a huge loss, but he has left this legacy of me feeling liked by him. I felt loved too, but I- Yeah ... I felt he liked me; he was so glad to see me. He was so happy, and I think, by the way, I think he did it with a lot of people, but I can only speak to his impact on my life.
[00:08:56] And that's really where the idea of So Glad It's You came from, of just lighting up around people. There is, people say, "Make sure your kiddos know you love them," but in middle school in particular, it's so important that they know you like them, that you really enjoy being around them. So that's that part of it, and then Leeann, of course, feels that on the teacher's side too.
[00:09:18] It's great when you have that teacher who believes in you- wow... and happy to see you even if it's a hard time or you're struggling with a test, or you didn't hand in homework, but has just liked you as a person. So that is all wrapped up into So Glad It's You, and it's been really cool.
[00:09:33] Lindsay: I, no, I love that's what you shared about it, and that's the origin.
[00:09:37] I didn't realize that story was just about your dad, and I think that's amazing. Because I was just sharing the story about Ms. Taylor, who was the preschool teacher that I think I've talked to you about before- who,o every time my kids would walk into her room, and first my son had her and then my daughter a few years later.
[00:09:52] But she did the same thing, where she would be like, "Oh, everybody, Del's here. Del's here." And the way she did it made that child just feel so liked, to your point- and seen, and it just n- it never left me. Because I just think that's, you just hit the nail on the head with that. Why do you think that's so important, especially in the middle school years?
[00:10:15] Bridget: I'll tell you the origin of where my thinking came from. I do feel like I felt this. I felt like my dad's like for me, it was almost like a rock in my pocket. No matter where I was, if I wasn't feeling comfortable, maybe people didn't like me that much, I don't know. There was a part of me that was just very grounded in, by the way, I thought my dad was the coolest, and he was just lovely.
[00:10:39] And so I was like, well, the coolest person on earth or who has ever lived on earth really liked me, so I must be okay. And but the origin of really turning, codifying this, turning this into a parenting approach was, as a young therapist, I would meet with kids and, okay, their parents would call about their teen, and they'd say, "So and so, they're the coolest kid.
[00:11:02] They're just really struggling right now. They have a lot of anxiety." So I would hear on the phone from these parents, "I love my kid. I wanna get their help." I would meet with this indeed amazing kiddo, the best kiddo in the world, and they would say things like, "Ugh, my parents don't really like me.
[00:11:17] I'm the problem in the family," and they knew that their parents loved them because love, it's a beautiful thing, but it's also very tangible, right? "They keep a roof over my head. They sign me up for things." So it was almost like... This is bizarre, Lindsay, but it was almost like love felt administrative in a way.
[00:11:34] "Yeah, yeah- my parents love me, but like?" It just was really striking to me 'cause I thought, "Oh, it's heartbreaking," and you see it between couples too, right? A- I'm a, I was a marriage and family therapist. And so I'd see couples in the room, these two people fighting for their relationship, really loved each other, and they were just, I'm crossing my hands now, like missing each other.
[00:11:53] I'm thinking like, I don't know, airplanes missing each other. Yeah. They would just be missing, and that was what was happening with these teens, tweens, teens, and with the parents. Parents: "I adore this kid. They're the coolest kid," literally. Kid comes in, "I'm the problem in the family." And they weren't; they wouldn't even always complain about their parents.
[00:12:10] They would just have this story they had told themselves, and I saw, particularly in middle school,l a story of, "I'm a problem. I don't fit in with my peers, and my parents are... I don't do enough chores. I don't do what they want me to do." And I have so much compassion for parents. You know I'm a mom of seven.
[00:12:29] It's busy. It's intense. But it really helped me frame this in my mind of, oh, I just, I need to be more honest with my kids. Not that I was lying, but just really honest and open,f even if I was stressed, 'cause parents get stressed, but to say, "By the way, something happened today not related to you.
[00:12:49] I'm stressed. It would really help if you did that." And it just formed into this relational way of parenting my own kids and then starting to help parents. 'Cause I think a lot of parents try to hold themselves to an impossible standard of, " Oh, I say the exact right thing, when what I was finding is you could just be more honest with a kid.
[00:13:09] You could tell them, "Hey, I'm having a tough time. Could you help me out?" And most kids really wanna do that, right? And even things like, "You're a great kid," right? You're a great kid, but we need to talk about the homework," right? "'Cause you're not getting it done on time." Or, "We need..." But really just being clear about how much you adore your kids.
[00:13:30] But yeah, the part, it's just, Lindsay, like I would hear a lot of parents, they adore their kids, and then their kids would just not feel that. And it's s-
[00:13:37] Lindsay: Did the parents know that the kids weren't feeling that,o r no?
[00:13:39] Bridget: I don't think so, I don't think so because the way it shows up, especially in middle school, is what looks disrespectful, right?
[00:13:47] When you are not feeling like someone likes you very much, you don't actually... There are a couple of ways you could go. You could fall into people-pleasing, right? I've been known to do that, right? A little bit of just like- yeah... trying to curry favor with someone, or you can really build up this anger, right?
[00:14:06] This, "I don't care." And so a lot of middle school parents feel like, "My kid doesn't even care about me anymore," right? They say, "I don't care." They slam a door. They roll their eyes. But middle school is such a vulnerable time. What do we do when we feel vulnerable? We tend to armor up, right? Yeah. And so that's...
[00:14:24] So the pa- I think parents didn't really realize, so it was very well-meaning, and parents are busy. It's, and sometimes parents will say to me, "But what if I really don't like my kid at that moment?" And I understand that, but I have really not met a parent who's just, "My kid's a lost cause," right?
[00:14:41] So even in that moment, if you don't like what they did, right? Let's separate what they did from who they are. And parents, once I explain that, they're very happy to lean in.
[00:14:51] Lindsay: That's fascinating. Okay, so when it comes to friendships for middle schoolers, and there are so many different topics that we could talk about that I think would be helpful for people and insightful, but I think friendships is a great place to start because- that age, I, I don't know about you, but most of my friends that I talk to about back in the day, it's like those are the years where you're like, "Yeah, if I could do it over again, might not wanna go back to that one." Yes. And it's, and n- I know a lot of people are not like that, but it's hard, as you said, as you know from your experience in studying all of this.
[00:15:28] It's like watching them and also being the mom of a 10-year-old, that, and a girl, right? You see, I see the differences between boys and girls and how they're going through this, and it does feel like, wow, these, you know, insecurities and things seem to start really early, right? Yeah.
[00:15:47] But what do you think is the most important thing that parents... Or wh- what is the thing no one tells you- yeah... about friendships in middle school?
[00:15:59] Bridget: Yes. That, I'm really glad that you brought friendships up, because I do think of all the difficulties parents bring to me; this is the most tender, and it's really the most common as well.
[00:16:11] So parents are very much trying to figure out how to help their kids at a time when it appears that their kids are pushing them away, becoming more secretive. And so I think the thing no one tells you about middle school friendships is that they are pretty much just a training ground for relationships.
[00:16:27] And so when we- think of a training ground, I think of a lot of newbies at something, right? I guess we could have a training ground where,e e- some people are experienced, some people aren't, but I really think of it like all these middle schoolers are trying to figure it out, and- Maybe the thing no one tells you is to really notice the fact that it's hard in middle school because middle schoolers are making relationships with other middle schoolers.
[00:16:52] This is so hard 'cause they're all changing and growing and confused and trying to figure it out. And so that is, definitely there's some bullying that goes on; there are things like that. But I really look at these kids at this time of their life with so much compassion because- I think we're looking at unskilled people with unskilled people, right?
[00:17:14] Without the relational skills to build what they want to build. 'Cause this is the first time... And by the way, I know it can start before middle school. You mentioned your daughter, right? But I think it's the first time in their life where they're trying to reach for another person; think what we do in friendships, Lindsay.
[00:17:28] We reach for another person and try to share our vulnerability; we share our heart with them. And when they're younger, we make friends, and it's more about play, and you're vulnerable with your parents maybe. But in middle school, we're starting to make deeper connections with people who aren't our parents, and they're other middle schoolers.
[00:17:47] So it's this really, can you hold my secrets, right? Can you, can I tell you something that is not so flattering about me, and will you hold it with tenderness? Which is really hard to do. So a lot of us, it's almost, I'm envisioning, I'm, like, doing a lot of arm mo- a lot of arm motions 'cause I feel like handing my little, fragile heart, and then the middle schooler just drops it, right?
[00:18:10] Like- me as a middle schooler handing that over. But they're practicing that 'cause we do need that skill, right? Eventually they may get married and have partners. Certainly they're gonna have coworkers, they're gonna have roommates, and that's why relational skills are so important. But at home, they have a relationship with a parent who has these relational skills, or at least is working on them, right?
[00:18:32] Who has maturity. But at school, they're reaching for people with vulnerability, w- reaching for another unskilled person. So that is what I think is so hard about middle school friendships, because they're really trying to figure it out, and parents feel like, "My kid doesn't even want me anymore."
[00:18:50] And a big thing no one tells you is how protective parents can be at home so far... By the way, be protective, not calling another person's parents or something. Protective in that your kid knows they're liked at home; they don't need to perform at home, they can be themselves. That's so protective. Even if it's rough out there in middle school- it's okay at home, right?
[00:19:12] Lindsay: So that's how we're supposed to be, is that-
[00:19:15] Bridget: Yes, and of course, we're gonna have disagreements at home, too. Yeah. But if home can be the place- and we call it a haven in therapy, in the therapeutic world, in attachment research- but if home can really be the place where they can take that mask off, and by the way, sometimes they take the mask off, and they just completely collapse 'cause it was really rough out there today, right?
[00:19:33] So it doesn't mean home is always peaceful, but it means it's real. Home is real, right? And then out there, they're figuring out, what do I need to keep protected? What can I share? And it's, it's a, a becoming, right? We talk about becoming, but that's, it's a time of becoming.
[00:19:53] Lindsay: What are the most important conversations that we can be having, do you think, to help?
[00:19:59] Bridget: I- that's a really good question, Lindsay, and I'm glad you asked, because so much of my work is about conversations. And-
[00:20:04] Lindsay: Okay ...
[00:20:04] Bridget: I always say to people, "Your kid doesn't want me as their parent. They want you as their parent, and they want you to be asking them about some of this harder stuff." And so I think with friendship conversations- how do you feel around that friend, right?
[00:20:19] If they are recounting, "I can't believe so-and-so did this," and you can see a couple of things, is it a pattern? Does this happen all the time? Is this just a blip? How do you feel around that person generally? Just help them walk around in their internal world. Help your kid walk- Okay ... around in their...
[00:20:36] Because we have so much going on inside, and I think especially in middle school, but even as grown-ups, we can feel like we're all one thing. I'm only hurt, I'm only angry, I'm only excited that they invited me to something. But think about it; I'll use the example of being invited to something.
[00:20:53] Typically, if someone, a friend, say, a new friend group invites you to something, then you're excited. You might be nervous. You might feel like you're betraying another friend. You might... And so I think the most useful conversations, if I wanna make this succinct, they're not only curious conversations, but they help the kid walk around in their internal world.
[00:21:13] Oh, like, what's coming up for you when you think of going? And by the way, Lindsay, your kid might say, "It's awesome," and like they've, it's not gonna be- they might be like a huge thing ...
[00:21:21] Lindsay: "I'm good. I'm good."
[00:21:23] Bridget: Yeah, "I'm good," and that's okay. But it even plants the idea for them, 'cause that is what I see.
[00:21:30] When I worked with adults, the biggest thing I saw was just not knowing a lot about their internal world. And by the way, this does not need to be meditation or anything like that, although it's amazing if people do that. But it's really just this kind of almost compassion for yourself, and I think that's what you can help your child have: compassion for how complicated we are as human beings.
[00:21:52] And we're never just one thing, and that, I think, in middle school, it's very easy to fall into the story of I am one thing. If I didn't get invited, I'm not likable. If I do get invited, I'm likable, but I'm scared I'm gonna be pushed out, right? So a lot of the behaviors we see that are hard in middle school are because a kid i- feels fenced into one thing.
[00:22:15] And so I love the idea of parents just broadening the world of what I can be; I have a lot of feelings at once, right? And then we also start to talk about how you behave within that, right? I'm angry. How do I show- yeah... people? How do I talk to people? And those are great conversations too. How can you talk to a friend about whether you're hurt?
[00:22:33] Is it worth your time to talk to them about it? Is it not? And I do really love the idea of i: is it a pattern, or is it a blip within a friendship? Is it a one-time thing? And then, of course, like,e so what the other person might... Other people also have very complicated internal worlds, right? And so I think that's helpful too.
[00:22:51] Lindsay: Do you feel like, if a child is showing that they're feeling nervous about being around, say, a friend because, say, something has happened in the friendship, how do you soften that for them? I love the idea of working around in their internal world. But like- when it comes to the action of, okay, you're going to go and see that friend again, or maybe you're at a sports event, playing on a team where that person is, oh, what is good advice for that kind of thing?
[00:23:18] Bridget: That's a really important thing that you're asking, Lindsay, because I think what can happen is when a kiddo says, "I don't..." Maybe they say, "I really don't wanna see someone," right? I think maybe that's what you're getting at, right? Maybe someone was unkind, or maybe even our kids were unkind,d and they're nervous.
[00:23:33] So a lot of times parents will let the kid stay home from that, or not have to go into that situation. And, other parents might say, they push them into it, right? It's no big deal.
[00:23:44] Lindsay: Go through it,
[00:23:45] Bridget: And so I think both of those responses are tricky,- unless you're really scaffolding with your kid, right?
[00:23:51] Because if you have a kid, stay away from hard things; have a kid, stay away from this feeling, right? It's a nervous feeling. You and I probably have had it too when we've been around someone who, and by the way, 'cause I wanna bring it up, been around someone who maybe we haven't been nice to. 'Cause I do think a lot of times parents don't give a lot of airtime to, "Hey kiddo, by the way, you might not be so nice sometimes."
[00:24:12] And that's being human, right? Like-
[00:24:14] Lindsay: Yeah ...
[00:24:14] Bridget: And help them clean it up. But, I wanna mention that because yes, so the, so I think we wanna figure out, help them figure out what's, what are you nervous about and do you have any other feelings about it, right? And the ideal scenario is for them not to stay away from the discomfort, right?
[00:24:32] Now sometimes we just wanna find out. If it's bullying going on, if it's a long-term thing where people are ganging up on your kid and there's a power differential, that's a different situation. But if it's discomfort, we really want to, with our help, help our kid with that discomfort and to come face to face.
[00:24:52] But it's going to require different things. So we could talk to them about being able to repair if they're the ones who'd said something unkind, or if someone was unkind to them- helping them say that to the person, and again, knowing your kid, maybe it would be better via text, or maybe the p- the other person is really a tough, a tough middle schooler who's gonna be mad if you bring it up- Yeah
.[00:25:15] and then you have information about that friendship, right? I always want kids to know they have power in a situation. They, and by that I mean options, for how they behave. But it is not a great option to just pull yourself totally out of the game, because that makes your life smaller. And so I think that is what I really want parents to know is, okay, how can we keep our kid's life big for what they wanna do?
[00:25:38] And some kids want bigger social lives, and some want smaller. Yeah. But have it be true to them, right? It's not like it's getting smaller because they're avoiding discomfort.
[00:25:47] Lindsay: Yes. Okay, and what is something you made me think about, too, is, think about all the stuff that we bring to the party as parents who have lived our own full lives, right?
[00:25:57] Bridget: Yes.
[00:25:57] Lindsay: So what have you observed or come to realize about what parents sometimes need to be mindful of in terms of their own experience and the way that then we are trying to parent our kids?
[00:26:11] Bridget: Yes. I think that it's great that you brought it up, and I think all parents will say, "Oh, this is bringing up so much stuff for me."
[00:26:17] What I want parents to know in these years with middle school is we think ... I'm gonna give an example. Okay, so if you or I have a memory of being in our friend group dropping us in middle school, right? Yeah. Then we might, so if we see something similar happen with our kid, by the way, might, may not even be similar, but even like a whiff of, "Hey, this friend didn't invite you," I think this is what you're talking about, Lindsay, right?
[00:26:41] You hear maybe that your kiddo didn't get invited, and all of a sudden you're like, "I'm back at that lunch table of the friend group-" "that's, I'm, it's off to the races," or "Oh, is my kiddo gonna get dropped?" And I think most parents, though, are very aware of that, right? They're, and they don't try to act on it.
[00:26:57] But there's so much that goes on in our bodies that just almost propels us forward into action, or has us ruminating. And so this is the shift I want parents to make. Okay, it is not when a friend group drops you- that's our example, right? When a friend group drops you, that is sad and hard in that moment, but that's not what is leaving the lasting impact.
[00:27:19] What's leaving that lasting impact is the meaning you made of it, in that sphere. And so that is what I don't think parents realize: how much influence, positive influence, and power, positive power, they have in these situations. So if that... So parents need to be really honest with themselves and do a little digging of their own in their internal world of, "Okay, when I have this moment where my kid doesn't get invited, I notice I get really upset and heated and worried for them.
[00:27:49] I know it's because my friend group dropped me in middle school." And there needs to be a broader excavation around that. Did you tell your parents or not when that happened? Did someone- did your parents dismiss it? Did they, and maybe even lovingly, but did your parents dismiss it? Did they make a big deal?
[00:28:06] Did they not make a big deal at all? A- again, maybe you never told anyone, and you just had lunch by yourself for a year. So if you meant your friend group dropping you by yourself without another adult to help you walk through it, then yes, like the wound you're carrying, the one that gets activated in those moments, the heat you're feeling, the- it's more about I'm not likable, right?
[00:28:28] I'm not someone that pe- I'm someone that people leave, right? Something like that. And these stories get embedded, and we as adults push through. But I think we could name some of these stories that come up in our hardest moments, and we really worry that our kids are gonna feel that same pain.
[00:28:47] But I want parents to know it's not about the moment as much as it is about the story. Because if you had a parent who really sat with you and was like, "That sucks. That's... Ugh. I really f- feel for you. That's rough in middle school," right? You just don't need to say a lot, then your story is gonna be more like, "That was a hard moment, but it doesn't define who I am."
[00:29:09] And that is what I'd see, then you're not carrying the lunchroom with you into parenting your own 13-year-old, 'cause you have this perspective of, "It's g- it's gonna be okay. I like my kid," right? They can... It's just a rough time right now. None of us wanna see our kids go through that, but you approach parenting very differently, and with a lot less heat when you realize, okay, in the present moment we'll just navigate this and figure it out.
[00:29:33] And your kids notice that, like kids do. I keep saying you are. Sorry, Lindsay, not just you, but- no, yeah ... parents. So I just want our kids not to notice when we're approaching them with worry, as much as we try to hide it, or we're approaching them with, "Hey, this is a hard time. Tell me what that's like for you."
[00:29:50] So- yes... I think that's the best way for parents- I always say to parents, just be honest with yourself. You don't need to tell the world about being dropped by your friend group when you were in whatever grade, right? You don't need to tell the world, but be honest with yourself. Oh, that was the meaning I made then.
[00:30:04] And by the way, my kid has me as a parent, and again, this is not about disparaging our kids, right? yeah. They have me, and they're not gonna go through it alone. I'm gonna walk with them through that. That's an entirely different experience. So even if they have the same experience of being dropped by a friend group, our kids have us, and it won't stick with them.
[00:30:25] And that, I am a trauma therapist too, and that was part of my training, and I worked with a lot of people with trauma, and that was always the thing. It was less about what happened and more about the meaning they made alone in that.
[00:30:37] Lindsay: Wow. Okay. What- is there a question that you hear most about middle schoolers and about helping them?
[00:30:44] Is there something that you think a lot of parents out there are asking that don't know the answer to?
[00:30:53] Bridget: I think friendships come up a lot, and it is interesting because there is so much information available to parents. And so, you can even maybe ask an AI agent, and you might even get a pretty decent response.
[00:31:05] I'm not gonna s- disparage that. There are tons of people that you can scroll through on Instagram or maybe- yeah ... Facebook or YouTube. And so I think you can get a lot of parenting advice. So, yeah, people definitely say, "How do I help my daughter? Her friend's group dropped her." That's a common one.
[00:31:21] "My son won't stop gaming, and he gets ... It's terrible for our relationship," right? "How do I get him to stop gaming?" "My teenage-"
[00:31:28] Lindsay: So I ... Well-
[00:31:30] Bridget: Yeah ...
[00:31:30] Lindsay: Not to interrupt you, but
[00:31:31] Bridget: No,
[00:31:31] Lindsay: That's fine ... in my conversation that I had with Jalen Brunson and his mom, funny you bring up the gaming, because- oh, yeah
[00:31:37] Obviously, he's several years removed from it, but he said the thing he can't live without is video games. And he talked, and Sandra talked about Sandra, about how they made a deal that it was like if he accomplished a certain amount of work or homework or whatever it was, then he got time allotted for video games.
[00:31:54] And I was thinking about that, because I'm like, that certainly is one of the things, like, at our house he loves video games, right? So I- is there something that is recommended with that, and yeah, and just best practices in general?
[00:32:10] Bridget: That's fair. I ... This is why I always take a relational approach to parenting, and I'll tell you what I mean by that.
[00:32:15] So- I think generally, none of us want our kiddos on video games so they miss school and things, right? We want them to still go to bed at a decent time. We don't want them gaming at 3:00 AM. So I think best practices- there are some structures that common sense would tell you. But besides that, it's very individual within homes, right?
[00:32:32] Because sometimes parents will play games with their- yeah... I'm gonna say sons, 'cause it's typically sons, but some girls game too. But then that's a bonding experience. Or your son might be playing with other people, other friends, or a friend maybe who moved away. And so I don't think it's all that helpful to give a time limit on it.
[00:32:51] But what I think about when I think of a relational approach is that we are all impacting each other in our homes, right? And that is what's important. And so how does a son's or daughter's, how does a kiddo's gaming impact the whole family, right? And certainly if there is tension and a fight about it, every night or every few nights, or they're sneaking in the middle of the night, then that is not a good space to be in at home.
[00:33:18] And I'm gonna give you an example from a real parent, and they, I'm not gonna use names or specific details, but they have permitted me to say this. But she worked with me in January in one of my groups. People would submit questions, and I would answer them on video. And so her question was, "I hate tech, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[00:33:36] I can't stand it. It's ruining my son's life. It's making his ADHD worse." Like, all of this, right? And so, I gave an answer, a written answer, and I verbally spoke it, and then she got some benefit from it. But the next group she signed up for as well, and she said, Bridget, it worked, what you said- but, like, I've become calmer about tech, but where is the ease?
[00:34:00] 'Cause I, sometimes I promise, par- middle school parents, "I'm gonna make it easier for you." Where is the ease? And as you can imagine, Lindsay, for a coach or a therapist or someone answering questions like, "I promise this will be easier." So I had a little moment, right? I check in with myself 'cause I'm like, "Can I actually help this?"
[00:34:14] But I, I, but I do really have a lot of faith in my approach, and so I gave her some more structure around it, some more ideas about, one, mostly what was coming up in her. Yeah. And then also how to approach it with him because kids, when they are breaking rules, especially middle schoolers, it could be a little different with high schoolers, but especially middle schoolers, they want to be good with their parents.
[00:34:37] Middle schoolers don't wanna fight with their parents. One, it's a hassle, but also they actually really admire their parents. They really do. 'Cause they don't wanna be in trouble. But again, not just because it's a hassle. They do. We're important to our kids. And so that was the part I think that really, after she's, after she said, "Where's the ease?"
[00:34:56] Put my feet to the fire. I said, "Your son doesn't feel good trying to circumvent your rules." And I'll cut to the chase 'cause I tend to be, I can tend to be a little wordy sometimes, but essentially she did find him gaming outside of the times that they had allowed, and I think she said something, this is what she reported to me, "I know this doesn't feel good for you to be doing, like sneaking this and doing that."
[00:35:22] It doesn't feel good for a kid to be sneaking around. None of us feel good sneaking around the people we love, right? And it just really opened up a different chapter. I got this email from her, and I thought, "Oh, phew." But again, I knew it would work, but you have to implement it. And she said, " Bridget, this has completely transformed our relationship around tech," and they came up with a plan, and now she puts the router to bed.
[00:35:45] I'm not very techy, but she puts the router to bed at a certain time of night. They talked about it. She made the decision. She's the parent. She's the leader. But then it was essentially like he couldn't stop. He was getting so pulled in by this game, but he didn't feel good about circumventing it. But some kids also need help because it's such a pull, and so they came up with a plan, but they came up with a plan together, right?
[00:36:08] And that is what makes such a difference, and I think that's what parents need to know. Your kid isn't really trying to be a jerk. They're not trying to get around all your rules, so we need to get curious about, well, what is causing this, right? And of course, with group chats or friendships, I see this more with girls; it could be they're on their phone late at night because they're worried about missing things, right?
[00:36:28] And then you- Yeah ... that's opening up a conversation that's really important for parents to have with their kids.
[00:36:34] Lindsay: So I hear you saying, yes, be, consider being more just honest, transparent, open with what the dialogue is about, what the thing is. And then one other question that I have is timing. One of the things I always wonder about is our kids, and I think a lot of folks are in the same boat, where they're programmed.
[00:36:53] They've got so many things, so many activities- yeah... even during the week. Do you see an important practice that you think could be really helpful for parents to implement daily in the zone that happens after school? And obviously everybody's got different schedules, so- but is there something that you think we should be mindful of to try to do on the daily basis with the kids when we do have the ability to be around them after school, whether it's right after or after someone gets home from work, et cetera?
[00:37:27] Bridget: Yes. Okay, I'm glad that you asked that because something I find striking is a lot of parents will say, and I'm not saying this as bad advice, but they'll say, "Don't ask anything," right? They'll say, "Just provide a snack and boop, zip." That actually has not been my experience with my children.
[00:37:42] They do tend to talk to me right away after school, and there could be a myriad of reasons 'cause they're all very different children, yeah... all seven of them. But I think what helps, though, and by the way, I don't, sometimes I've got something on my mind when I pick them up after school, too, so sometimes the quiet would be okay.
[00:38:00] But I think what makes a difference for my kids is there's no agenda. And so I'm not necessarily asking; I'm just letting whatever comes.
[00:38:08] Lindsay: You're, like, receiving.
[00:38:09] Bridget: Yeah. But if I don't see them right after school, then bedtime's a really good time. So but I guess what I would do as a best practice, and I really think I do this, it's become part of just the way I navigate the world, is I do check in with myself before I go get them.
[00:38:25] It doesn't have to... It probably takes me 20 seconds now, but I'm like, sometimes I've had a day at work and, or maybe, thankfully not as much anymore, a friendship thing or something, but right, sometimes I've had stuff happen. And so I really do try to give myself some love before I pick them up. But again, it could be very fast.
[00:38:43] But okay, this is what I'm bringing into the car, right? And then- yeah... they're bringing in their stuff. And of course, if you have more than one kid, sometimes they talk over each other. But I think that is the most important thing: for parents to be kind to themselves and to know what they're bringing into the car, and to just realize nothing needs to be asked right away.
[00:39:04] So, but I won't say... Sometimes I will ask about the test, right? I will say, "Oh, how'd that math test go?" Because you were worried about it. I don't think you should, as a blanket rule, not ask anything, but sometimes it is helpful, right? If a kid thinks, "Oh, maybe my parents don't think I'm very smart," or maybe, "I really struggle with this," they're embarrassed about it.
[00:39:24] But there's a way to parent where your kid really is pretty assured that- if they had a tough ... that you do think they're smart or that you don't think they're lazy or things like that- where they really, I think, do end up sharing because they know you don't have an agenda. By the way, sometimes I do have an agenda, so I have to- sometimes I do get- right?
[00:39:43] Because I do. I'm- she does ... prone to that too, right? And then you can go back later, because if they're like, "Ugh, I'm not talking about anything," then you go back later and say, "Hey, I think I came on a little strong there. I want you to come..." "I know you've had a long day. I want you to be able to come in the car and just tell me whatever you want."
[00:39:59] By the way, I did drive my, I have a 14-year-old son, he's in eighth grade, and I drove him home from baseball practice, and I think because we parent in this relational way, I started talking, and he said, "Mom, with the way my practice went, I just need silence." And it was like a 25-minute ride, but it was fine.
[00:40:17] It was fine. That was fine. But I did... By the way, so relationally, I think that's excellent that he did that. I love that my 14-year-old can tell a person, he didn't think, "Oh, will my mom be mad at me that I don't wanna talk?" Or, "She's so annoying- because she asked. He just knew, eh, you probably wanna talk to me, and this is just not it.
[00:40:34] And so I think that is it, right? So we can have these little hacks of, oh, just, don't talk or do talk, but I am so much more excited about an approach, an approach where we just try to be relational. Sometimes we might make a, not a misstep. We can't read their minds, right? So sometimes we may talk, and they don't wanna talk, and I would love it to be Hey, can we just not talk for now?
[00:40:58] And, and I've noticed with my... I have a six-year-old daughter and an 18-year-old daughter in high school . Sometimes if she's grumpy, now she can say, "And it's not 'cause of you, Mom, but it's a... " And, and- oh... even if she says it- yeah... in a rough way, right? But I do think that's a kindness, right?
[00:41:16] And so she's mirroring what I do for her, right? Which is that I'm not quite as gruff as the teenager, but- no, that's awesome ... even if I'm in a bad mood- I love that ... I'm just honest about it. So when I think relationally, I think that's such a powerful thing, and then you don't have to have so many rules.
[00:41:32] I love the parenting advice out there, but you don't have to be like, "Oh, I really screwed it up 'cause I talked instead of not talking today."
[00:41:38] Yeah.
[00:41:39] Lindsay: We put so many parameters on ourselves, and then it does not; it's just not natural.
[00:41:42] Bridget: Yeah. Can I say one thing about boys and friendships?
[00:41:46] Because as much as we talk about friendships, we so often see more of the drama with girls, but with boys, what can happen in middle school is they really start to fall into these patterns of being not as close with their friends, right? Even if they hang out with them a lot. And so I do wanna encourage parents for both genders to really help both of them, and it doesn't have to be lots of conversations, but to help your son to figure out when maybe his feelings get hurt.
[00:42:14] 'Cause I have noticed, now that I have this middle school son, that he'll say, "Oh, it wasn't a big deal." And sometimes, you almost wanna fan the flames a bit more with your son, but help your daughter contain them a bit more, right? And I don't mean specifically you, but- Right. Yes,
[00:42:28] Lindsay: yes, yes ...
[00:42:29] Bridget: offer that because, I mean, I never wanna say to my son, "Oh, you should, he's terrible… You should hate him,"
[00:42:33] right? But- You probably do have some feelings about that, 'cause there is this nonchalance that boys can start to develop in middle school and high school, and I think unfortunately it means that their friendships get a bit more shallow, and that's not as healthy for them. Male friendships, deep, close male friendships can be so healthy.
[00:42:52] I mean, are. They're never not. Healthy, safe male friendships are really, really good and important for our boys, and so I just wanted to offer that. Yes. I love it. I think that that is such an important part of middle school friendships that, uh, 'cause some people are like, "Oh, boys are easier 'cause they don't have any drama," and I get it, but it's easier for us as parents, but I do wanna encourage people to kind of step into that a little bit, step into the fray a little bit of like, how was that for you?
[00:43:17] And then maybe they still, maybe it really wasn't a big deal, but we wanna make sure our boys do have a place and do have people and close friends who have got their back, who care about their feelings, who can help them if a girlfri- if a girlfriend breaks up with them, right? So often girls and boys will date in high school and the girlfriend will say, "Oh my gosh, like, I've got my girlfriends, but my boyfriend tells me everything 'cause he's like, he doesn't have anyone to talk to."
[00:43:40] Right. Yes, so I think that's really important, too.
[00:43:44] Lindsay: I love that advice. I love it. Noted. Yes. Thank you, Bridget. It's always so great to talk to you, and I'm so excited that you joined again, and that you've agreed to join in the future. Yes, yes. And
[00:43:54] Bridget: I can't wait for- Absolutely ...
[00:43:56] Lindsay: Good luck with So Glad It's You. It's amazing.
[00:43:58] Bridget: Thank you so much, Lindsay. That's, you are doing such important work here, and you have the coolest guests on this podcast. I love listening to them and hearing- all your curious questions, so thank you so much. Thank you.
[00:44:10] Lindsay: I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Bridget as much as I did.
[00:44:13] So she truly is such a resource in all these different areas, so we are making sure to include all of that information in our show notes, where you can go a little bit more also about, So Glad It's You, which I think is such an, a really awesome platform to be able to tap into. So it's always great to connect with her.
[00:44:31] I feel like I learn a lot every single time we chat, and I hope that you can find some of this information useful as well. So for everyone on our show team here at Things No One Tells You, thank you for listening this time, and we can't wait to see you next week.
