Navigating the Impact of Addiction with Stable Recovery: Ep 28

podcast
Written By Lindsay Czarniak

Highlights from the episode:

  • Why one-size-fits-all treatment often fails the people who need it most

  • How Christian’s lived experience shaped the Stable Recovery model

  • The loneliness families carry while searching for real answers

  • Why long-term recovery requires community, purpose, and structure

  • Why support after treatment can be as important as treatment itself

 

Podcast show notes:

When I first visited Stable Recovery, I knew something meaningful was happening there: not just treatment, but transformation. In this episode, founder Christian Countzler shares his journey from addiction to building a place designed to remove the barriers he faced when trying to get well. Alongside him are Sandy and Dave Schimizzi, my aunt and uncle, who speak openly about losing their son Alex and the heartbreaking gaps they encountered while trying to help him.

Together, we talk about the individuality of addiction, the pressures families aren’t prepared for, and the moments that make long-term recovery so difficult without real support. This is an emotional episode, but it’s also hopeful, a reminder that change is possible when communities, not just individuals, show up.

What You’ll Discover:

  • Christian’s story and the origins of Stable Recovery (06:25)

  • Alex’s journey and early emotional struggles (11:57)

  • The fear and uncertainty families live with daily (23:01)

  • The critical need for purpose and follow-up care (27:44)

  • The depth of despair people can experience (57:09)

  • The limitations of sentencing and current treatment options (72:19)

  • Why it’s important to not give up on loved ones (80:05)

This conversation doesn’t offer easy answers. But it does offer truth, the kind that helps people feel less alone.

Connect with Stable Recovery

See their website: https://www.stablerecovery.net/ 

Follow Stable Recovery on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/stable_recovery/ 

Donate today: https://www.stablerecovery.net/make-a-difference#Donate 

If you are in the US and need immediate help, connect with treatment and mental health referrals near you by: Calling 1-800-662-HELP (4357) Texting your zip code to HELP4U (435748)

Learn more about Lindsay’s visits to Stable Recovery from these videos:

Be sure to subscribe to Things No One Tells You—Lindsay’s podcast all about the real, unfiltered conversations we don’t always have but should. From big names to everyday voices, each episode dives into the moments that shape us. Listen wherever you get your podcasts!

spotify
apple podcasts
youtube

Follow along with Lindsay below!

Full Transcript

[00:00:00] Christian: If there was ever a lost cause, I was it. And it wasn't until I found, you know, the right people and the right circumstances that believed in me long enough for me to start believing in myself. And I'm telling you right now that the worst of the worst can get better from this if they receivethe right support.

[00:00:19] Lindsay: Hey guys, that's my friend, Christian Countzler ,talking about his battle with addiction and why he's so passionate about the work he does at Stable Recovery, which is the recovery program in Lexington, Kentucky, that they use, working with horses to help provide purpose for addicts going through their program.

[00:00:36] This episode it's a bit different because this is deeply personal, but it's also something I am deeply passionate about. These are the things no one tells you about addiction. So my guests are Christian, who you just heard from, and my aunt and Uncle, Sandy and Dave Schmid, who lost their son, Alex. Who is my cousin to a drug overdose two years a?o.

[00:00:57] So, real quick, my uncle is a dentist. My aunt, by trade, was a professional counselor with a specialty in rehab counseling. And the reason that I'm sharing that is bthatit has become so clear to me that you can have any sort of background. You can have the best resources, and addiction does not discriminate.

[00:01:16] My cousin was 31 years old. He used to call me cousin. He battled this disease for several years. First it was marijuana, then it was heroin, opioids. And I still remember where I was when I got the call. I was on a football field watching my son play flag football. And I took a call from my mom, and she said, Alex overdosed, and he's gone.

[00:01:41] And I think in that moment. It floored me because it was something that we, all of us in our family, which feels a little small, like we all were so worried about this because we knew how hard he battled and all the ups and downs he had, and how he was in and out of rehab. He had held onto jobs, nd then he lost them.

[00:02:02] I think we feared that obviously. But the moment it happened, it was just this flurry of emotion of sadness,s, to also like what more could have been done.

[00:02:11] Flash forward to me going to visit Stable Recovery, that recovery program I talked about last year, because I was working on a story. We were doing a feature on the program, and we were highlighting how they use these horses and the work with horses to create a sort of passion and a purpose to help them move on.

[00:02:32] Their program is built on accountability, structure, discipline, and responsibility. We were given all access, and we were able to hear their own personal stories when they spoke up in front of the group. They shared their feelings about, you know, missing time with their families on the outside. And it really made me feel, I want those families who have someone who is battling addiction to hear this.

[00:02:55] I want them to know what goes on here. And I wanted my aunt and my uncle to see that, because even though we can't help my cousin, we couldn't save my cousin. I know that a program like this could have, and I know that my aunt and uncle did everything in their power to help him while he was living.

[00:03:11] Here we are. So the thing no one tells you about addiction is what?

[00:03:17] Christian: The amount of work that goes into trying to help someone.

[00:03:22] It's different for every single person thwhots affected. And I've been working in addiction recovery for, ite some time now, and what I found, especially early on, ,was that, people who were addicted were being treated the same way. And so we were using kind of this blanket coverage to help people get better, and it would work for one or two of those people, right?

[00:03:45] But, what about the other eight that were in that group or that class or whatever that was, you know, so, I think it gets lost in translation that, you know, addiction is a personal problem to each individual. And if you don't treat each individual differently, then we're gonna be behind the eight ball here, and we're just not doing a very good job of helping lots of people.

[00:04:10] Some people are getting better, and lots of people are working in this field and doing good work in this field, but. We don't highlight the problem of addiction enough in this country. It, it, competes with lots of other diseases and stuff. It kills people every single day. There's someone overdosing in a hospital right now in Lexington.

[00:04:31] I guarantee it. You know, and I don't understand why we're not highlighting that problem.

[00:04:36] Lindsay: Sandy and Dave, what would you say is your,

[00:04:38] Sandy: I totally agree with what you're saying. From our experience, when our son needed help, it was almost like a scramble. We really had no clue what was out there, and there were no professionals, no information as to what treatments work best.

[00:04:58] Even in selecting facilities, we didn't even know what to look for. Probably thinking about coming here and about what we didn't know? Yeah. You know, we didn't realize at that time that when our son, who had been suffering from depression and anxiety and was in treatment, therapists were not permitted to tell us that our son was suffering from a drug addiction because it was illegal for them to provide that information.

[00:05:33] And it's like, how can, looking back, how can you parent somebody when you professionals know what's going on, but they can't tell you? And, I don't know if that would've had an, made much of an, a difference early on, but the earlier you catch it, the, better outcomes. But we just struggled with finding the right treatments, and it just seemed like most of them that our son was involved in were cookie-cutter types that were sort of like a farm.

[00:06:05] You go in, you go through all that. Coursework, and then you're out.

[00:06:10] And, the follow-up was always very poor, as far as there were some good halfway houses, some community living, but still the end product, which hopefully would've been a decent job, a place to be, a place to feel better about yourself.

[00:06:30] Never happened. Right. You know, they were pretty much told, go out, find a job, and it was usually something very low-level, entry-level, that really didn't do too much for self-esteem or ambition. And that's sometimes the beginning of relapse. Yeah.

[00:06:51] Christian: Yeah.

[00:06:51] Dave: Yeah. Well, not having experience with addiction growing up or any relative or friend that I had, it was just an eye-opener for me.

[00:07:02] I just thought that. You know, the old just say, No, thing was gonna work. You know, he should, hehe justhould quit. He should just quit, you know?

[00:07:12] And without having experience in the difficulties of that, it was just a situation where we just felt helpless. Just felt helpless.

[00:07:23] I still feel helpless to this day.

[00:07:25] Christian: Very little support, right? And it's not just support for that individual. There needs to be support for the family as well, because eventually that individual is gonna get outta treatment and go back to the family. And if we're not also preparing and helping the family to receive that individual, well, we just end up right back at square one.

[00:07:43] And the thing about addiction is it is a progressive disease. It continues to get worse and worse every single time. So finding a way to stop the progression is something that we should focus on, right? And think that, in hearing guys talk, you know, you had very little support. You didn't know what to do once it started.

[00:08:05] You didn't know what to do once he came home. And, you know, why were we not educating folks on that?

[00:08:12] Lindsay: I pulled out of this farm when we were here this past, I guess, the end of winter. And I remember feeling. This is agame-changerr. You can feel it when you're here. You hear it, you meet the men at that time, and we are going through it.

[00:08:28] And, you know, and the reason, in my opinion, it was a game changer was you've got the horses, which are a thing of their own, because that connection is helpful. You cannot deny that. But it also is Christian, it's you, and it's the way that you have embraced this program and the message that you're delivering.

[00:08:46] And I remember hearing you talk about your own personal experience, and I would, I think that it would be great to set the table with the experiences, both Alex, you know, I wanna talk about my cousin, but I would love you to share about what you went through and how that became part of this.

[00:09:01] Christian: Sure. Well, I struggled most of my adult life.

[00:09:04] I, and I, wish I could sit here and tell everybody that this thing that happened to me at this age was the catalyst for what turned into my full-blown addiction. I can't do that. You know, I had kind of a troubled childhood. I had an abusive father. And, stuff like that.

[00:09:24] I

[00:09:28] ended up becoming a coal miner, where I was introduced to opiates. And it's kind of the, you know, sad Kentucky story of a guy that was trying to support his family. I had a decent job, but I was introduced to opiates pretty quickly, quickly in that job. And, where I had been able to manage alcohol and manage recreational-type drug stuff, you know, once I started opiates, I couldn't manage that anymore.

[00:09:53] And that, that the progression I was just talking about, it began, then, and it, you know, this is back during the OxyContin craze and all of that was, it was very easy to go to a doctor and get prescribed opiates, right? And so that was how I fed my addiction for a long time because I could literally walk into an emergency room and leave with what I needed to feel better.

[00:10:17] As that progressed, it obviously was getting worse and worse. And, at age 35, I started using drugs intravenously. They had finally cracked down on the opiates and taken, you know, the ease of being prescribed that drug away. And so I was left with the choice, and I had to get high.

[00:10:39] At that point, I was so bad off that I had to get high. aAndso I, I chose to use needles, and that's when things got really bad for me., lost my family. I lost my job. I lost my house. I ended up homeless, for three years, in and outta jail, in and outta treatment. But nobody was really.

[00:11:03] Helping me on an individual basis. Right. And I kept going to these short-term treatment centers and spending a short amount of time in jail. And then inevitably I would be kicked out right into the same environment that I came from, and without a solution towhat was going on in my life, I would use again, and then the cycle would start all over, you know?

[00:11:26] And it wasn't until I removed myself into a long-term recovery programt, that I was, you know, thank God was able to surround myself with good people that pushed me to do the right thing, not the wrong thing. A lot of, you know, I'm sure your son was introduced to a lot of the wrong people in a lot of the situations that he came to.

[00:11:48] but I took all of that and that, that's, I didn't know then, but I was researching how to build a recovery program, you know, through my own lived experience. And so, after meeting Frank and having worked in the field for a period of time, I was given the opportunity to write the program for stable recovery.

[00:12:07] And I, just, anything that had become a barrier to my recovery. I tried to remove that here at Stable Recovery, and that looks like fellowship and purpose and motivation and all of these things. It's really hard for any human being to get up on a daily basis and grind at a job with whatever that is.

[00:12:29] Some of us need a little motivation for that. And so, that's what I try to do here at Stable Recovery is to make sure that every single morning when these folks are waking up, they know they're important, they know what they're doing is working towards a better life, and then pushing them towards that for a period of a prolonged period of time.

[00:12:50] and folks seem to be getting better because of it.

[00:12:54] Lindsay: And then I still can't believe that Alex is gone if we're being honest, right? I mean, Alex is so smart. He was just such a loving person. When did he, when did you first know that there was something going on with him?

[00:13:09] Sandy: In high school, I knew that he was using marijuana. And I really did not know that he was using anything else until he was out of high school. And, at that point, he said to me that he started to use opioids, and he needed help. Wow. And so we started the cycle.

[00:13:36] Christian: Yeah.

[00:13:38] Sandy: But he, as a child, was very bright, but he did have some learning issues.

[00:13:44] I had him tested, and he was on the spectrum, so he really had some social difficulties with other kids. And he was in a situation where he had a very difficult time at school one day. And he actually suffered post-traumatic stress from that. And, at that point, we started to have him treated; this was when he was in fourth grade.

[00:14:11] He started to be treated for depression at an early age. And so he was on some medications, and nothing was helping. And he just explained that he tried an opioid one time, and he said it made him feel so wonderful. He never felt that good. Yeah. Yeah. And it beat all the psychotropic medications that the doctors were giving.

[00:14:40] And that's what started him on that path. And, Yeah. And that's, I feel like that's when we lost him.

[00:14:49] Christian: Well, I was telling you guys, and it was kind of an aha moment when we were speaking earlier. You know, I can remember being seven or eight years old and looking in the mirror and not liking what I saw.

[00:14:59] And I had no reason for that. But there was, when you were that young, always. Always something different inside of me. I either felt left out, not a part of, unworthy, and that, you know, I wish I could blame trauma, but I don't remember a time when I was a child where I did not feel different.

[00:15:18] And I guess I was born with that, and I talked to lots of other people who suffer from addiction and don't mention the same thing, that there was just something about being in a room full of people, but feeling absolutely alone as a child, you know? So then we start to grow up, and we find these substances that remove that feeling of difference in all of that.

[00:15:40] And, you know, we obviously gravitate back to that because it's the one thing that's worked. It is the only thing that worked to remove that feeling of being different, you know? And so,

[00:15:53] Dave: I think he, remember he wanted to, when he wasn't fitting in, He wanted to dress differently.

[00:15:59] Lindsay: Yeah.

[00:16:00] Dave: He wanted to become gothic. Okay. And, in our area where we're from, that was not a good thing in that high school that he was in. Because that just made him more different. More different and more of an outcast. And so therefore it just, you know, it just starts, with something like that, and it just proceeds to, you know, more depression, and then yeah.

[00:16:25] Reaching out for anything. In his case,

[00:16:27] Christian: It's striking that you would say that because, my entire childhood, teenage years stuff, I looked for outside solutions to make the inside of me better, whether it was that pair of shoes or if I could make that sports team, or if I could get that girlfriend.

[00:16:42] I was constantly seeking different ways to make me feel better inside.

[00:16:47] Dave: he's reaching out to anyone.

[00:16:49] Christian: Exactly. Because

[00:16:50] Dave: Who will accept him?

[00:16:51] Christian: He had that feeling inside that

[00:16:52] Dave: He was not athletic, andd that, you know, and in the high school that he attended,

[00:16:57] Christian: Yeah.

[00:16:57] Dave: That just put way down on the pecking order to begin with.

[00:17:01] Yeah. And then it just proceeds,

[00:17:03] Christian: It just compounds.

[00:17:05] Lindsay: Yeah. So that feeling is like a feeling of acceptance.

[00:17:09] Dave: Exactly.

[00:17:09] Lindsay: Is that what you think it is? Yeah.

[00:17:10] Christian: Or he never had that, or Unacceptance Right. Is the better one that you're trying to, you know,

[00:17:15] Lindsay: Trying to get rid of

[00:17:15] Christian: Feeling less than, feeling different, feeling, you know?

[00:17:18] and then talking about Alex, like a lot of times we'll go to the extreme opposite of the thing like, like dressing completely different than what other people are dressing because maybe that will be. Will set me apart from, whatever it is, you know,

[00:17:32] Dave: He used to tell us about that. He would always say, You would never let me do that.

[00:17:36] And you,, I know. And that's just another layer of guilt. It is. That I have on my shoulders. Oh, I'm

[00:17:41] Lindsay: Sure. For not letting him dress as the way he wanted.

[00:17:44] Dave: Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. We lived in, and then, we wanted him to be in, we wanted him to be a part of something, so we wanted him to be in the band.

[00:17:51] Lindsay: Yeah.

[00:17:52] Sandy: Which he was. Right. He was a good musician. He was a good musician.

[00:17:54] Dave: Loved, he felt that being in the band was nerdy. Yeah. And then that was just another thing that knocked him down on Sure. The social pecking.

[00:18:02] Lindsay: Yeah. So that becomes the why. Right. Or some of the background story. Sure. And then, so once, once you're in it, and once you've experimented with the thing that feels really good and you're there, what was that journey or struggle like for you?

[00:18:17] Like, Dave, what are your thoughts on that part of it?

[00:18:21] Dave: The struggle that he went through.

[00:18:22] Lindsay: And how that played out for you guys as well.

[00:18:26] Dave: weWeried everything, Lindsay. We tried everything, you know, starting with sports, which didn't go well. Then we started with karate. He went, and we put him in a karate school.

[00:18:37] We also, then we had him in Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts. That didn't go wellIt'sIt just one thing after another. We tried everything that we possibly could think of to do.

[00:18:47] Sandy: But he perpetually had a feeling of, he would, I just feel so lonely. I don't have a friend. He just never felt like he connected with anyone.

[00:19:00] Christian: Yeah

[00:19:00] Sandy: But I've read, just like you were saying, people don't decide I'm gonna try opiates today. You know, every person I've ever spoken to and counselors that we've been in touch with, Alex's journey, I'll say if it's either physical or psychological, social, emotional, something is, triggers a need to make me feel better.

[00:19:29] Christian: Right?

[00:19:30] Sandy: I need to feel better. I just feel so bad about myself.

[00:19:34] Christian: If you already feel like an outcast, you're gonna gravitate towards the outcast, and that, that's where peer pressure can come in, you know, and where I never ever thought I would do this. Well, all of a sudden, my only group of friends.

[00:19:48] That's what they're doing. So the people on the fringe. Yeah. So I'm gonna do that. You know?

[00:19:52] Dave: So that's what kind of we were afraid of, and that's exactly what happened.

[00:19:55] Christian: Exactly. You know, but the circumstances are, it can be so different. It can be an ACL tier in a high school football game. It can be peer pressure from a group of friends.

[00:20:05] It can be mom and dad's medicine cabinet. And for some reason, you know? Yeah. Theree are so many. But once you've crossed over and begun using that substance, then the physical addiction takes over. And that's when things start to get really bad. That's where we hurt mom and dad, and we commit crimes, nd we do these things that we never ever thought we would do.

[00:20:29] I was a good kid. I was, I did not want to ever, I never thought I would be standing in front of a judge dressed in orange ever. And then after you have broached that and you're in a jail cell thinking, how in the world did I ever end up here? Feelings of guilt, shame, and remorse. I've got to make those go away.

[00:20:50] So the second I get outta jail, I'm going right back to that thing that takes away.

[00:20:55] Lindsay: What is it like being the family of someone going through that in-state? What is it like as a family? What is it like being,

[00:21:04] Sandy: Oh, we, I think we were in a constant state of being distraught. Again, you know, I kept my cell phone with me continuously twenty-four-seven because I was always waiting for the call.

[00:21:20] Dave: Well, when he lived with us, remember when he had, he lived, we had a two-story home, so he was, his bedroom was upstairs. So every day I would get up, the first thing I would do is go to the stairway and say, Alex.

[00:21:33] Yeah. Just to see if it would answer.

[00:21:35] Christian: Yeah.

[00:21:36] Dave: Just to see if it would answer. That's the way it was. Yeah. And then after a couple of times where we had to resuscitate him. I said that, I said, we just can't do this anymore. We have to get him his own place. We just have to, I can't go through this anymore. Yeah.

[00:21:52] It was, and we did. I mean, we paid for a place for him. I mean, we didn't cut him off. That's one thing we could not do, but it was too much trauma for us on a daily basis.

[00:22:07] Lindsay: At that point, what did you know that he was using?

[00:22:10] Dave: Oh, we knew he was using heroin at that point.

[00:22:12] Lindsay: Okay.

[00:22:13] Dave: We couldn't stop him,

[00:22:15] Lindsay: But in his good moments, oh, was it just when he was Alex

[00:22:18] Dave: When he was clean, he was the nicest kid you could ever find.

[00:22:21] Lindsay: Yeah.

[00:22:21] Dave: I mean, he and I could sit down and have a conversation about music. He loved music so much. I mean, and I did too. I did too. So we could talk for hours about 

[00:22:32] Christian: You were talking about Trivial Pursuit and that, too. Yeah. That stuff. You know,

[00:22:35] Dave: Anything, I mean, he was very knowledgeable

[00:22:36] Christian: Yeah.

[00:22:36] About things.

[00:22:37] Dave: He was well-read. He read he would, that's what he did all day, would read books. Wow. Yeah. Anything.

[00:22:42] Lindsay: Dave said he would always make Alex's partner on Trivial Pursuit because that's how he would always win. We always won. We always won.

[00:22:47] Sandy: No question. And, I guess what we found was, and what happens was, so the opioids are so, were so readily available, but then came heroin because it was cheaper.

[00:23:02] Christian: Yeah.

[00:23:03] Sandy: And shocking.

[00:23:06] Christian: Yeah.

[00:23:06] Sandy: We never thought our son would do that.

[00:23:10] Christian: I don't think any mom ever, you know, I don't think your son probably, yeah. Let me use my own experience with that. I never thought I would ever stick a needle in my arm full of heroin ever. Did I think that? Or methamphetamine, whatever it was, you know?

[00:23:23] Yeah. That's not anything. And you know, we were talking about it. There was never a point as a child where I thought, I wonder what that's like. I might try that one of these days. It was not, it was, that is bad. I won't do that, right? That's what I was, that's what I knew. Right. But through life and these feelings of orthlessness and, then the shame and the guilt and the remorse and all of that, we're gonna do whatever it takes to not feel those feelings.

[00:23:50] Whatever it is. You know, and I go through this with families all the time now because I either have their loved one in the program or they're trying to get their loved one into this program, and you know, you guys were, we were talking about support. I wish I could, when a mom calls me or a dad calls me, I could say, well, do A, B, and C.

[00:24:09] and let's see what I can't do that. There is no handbook for the stricken, you know, when it comes to that. There, there's just nothing that I can, you know, we pray that they reach a level, and this sounds awful, but it's true. We pray that they reach a level of pain that will produce the willingness to do the really hard things to get better.

[00:24:31] How do you do that? The, you know, I don't know how to tell you all to do that, or, you know, I'm sure you weren't told how to do that. You know,

[00:24:40] Dave: We were told the opposite.

[00:24:40] Christian: Exactly.

[00:24:42] Dave: You know?

[00:24:42] Lindsay: Meaning you were

[00:24:43] Dave: Yeah. Get him. 

[00:24:44] Christian: You told me that. And I was shocked by that.

[00:24:46] Dave: Kick him out. Don't let him come back in.

[00:24:48] Put him on a plane to anywhere. One-way ticket. 

[00:24:53] Lindsay: What was the thought process behind that for people thwhoere telling you that

[00:24:57] Dave: I guess, to ease our trauma? I don't know.

[00:25:01] Sandy: Or do you mean they just thought that

[00:25:04] Dave: Yeah.

[00:25:05] Sandy: That he just has to quit and that it's a, it's simple. And that if he's still using, just get rid of him. I think that the police, the attorneys, the law, they considered them lesser people, that's, you know, they are considered to them.

[00:25:25] Christian: You get written off at a certain point when you've, whatever circumstances you get written off in society is basically, once you're written off, well, they're a lost cause.

[00:25:34] Just give up on that, right? Basically, that's what I'm hearing from you all.

[00:25:36] Sandy: That is what we found.

[00:25:37] Christian: And I'm here to tell you right now, and Lindsay, you met some of them when you were here the last time, and I was as bad as you could possibly get. You know, I'm living in an abandoned house. I'm not showering for weeks.

[00:25:49] If there was ever a lost cause, I was it. And it wasn't until I found, you know, the right people and the right circumstances that believed in me. Long enough for me to start believing in myself. And I'm telling you right now that the worst of the worst can get better from this if they receive the right support, right?

[00:26:08] That's what needs to be said today, is it you can and will get better. But we gotta find the right resources to, for the parents, for the individual themselves. They have to have access to the right resources.

[00:26:22] Lindsay: And people need to know to look for that. That's it. And you said something, earlier to me, about how you believe it takes a year of time for someone to believe in themselves. Is that right?

[00:26:33] Am I saying that right? Yeah. Like the amount of time that

[00:26:35] Christian: Minimum, right. Minimum, like, you know, at least,

[00:26:39] Lindsay: and then to have a purpose, meaning that's why this with the horses is so

[00:26:44] Christian: Alex, 31, when he passed. You started using it at a very young age. So take 15, 16, 17 years of the progression of this disease.

[00:26:53] You can't fix that in 30 days. Right. You can't fix that in 60 days.

[00:26:57] Dave: Rehab for what? 30 days to fix that.

[00:26:59] Christian: You know, you can't fix years of rehab damage in 30 days. You just can't do that.

[00:27:04] Lindsay: So, and then when you're done with that rehab program, and you've completed it, then what happens?

[00:27:08] Dave: Well then, you go to a halfway house

[00:27:10] Lindsay: And what happens there?

[00:27:11] Dave: You meet a lot of people who are,yeahh. Doing the same thing as you're doing.

[00:27:15] Christian: And that's the really important thing to be said here is these, with the rehab centers and stuff like that, again, a lot of them do a lot of really good work. But if you don't support that individual post-treatment, you know, wraparound services, like continued therapy and a purposeful job, a nd this, that, and the other, if you don't provide that for that individual, they're going back around the same people, places, and things. Same environment. They may hold on for dear life for a period of time for dear life, but.

[00:27:48] Eventually, they succumb to those feelings again 'cause they're not being supported. And for us, you know, as addicts, when we make a bad choice, some really bad stuff's gonna happen. And then it's just that downward spiral all over again. We talk about, you know,

[00:28:04] Sandy: And you write about the lack of support once you get out.

[00:28:07] And Alex always seemed to be under so much stress after he would get out of a treatment, a halfway house, he'd be on his own.

[00:28:19] Christian: Yeah.

[00:28:19] Sandy: And yeah, there are some meetings you can go to, but there's not a big support system. And he was the one who had to find jobs for himself, and usually they were very low-level.

[00:28:33] A lot of jobs where nobody else wanted to work. Yeah. So employers would be open to hiring people who just came outta rehab and sort of rehab, and it was hard to survive in that kind of situation. And it was unfortunate thing was when the last time he was in a treatment program, he was sober for at least six months.

[00:28:57] Wow. He did, he really was trying. And then I noticed, he started to get really frustrated, and life is hard. He was feeling it was so hard to pay the rent.

[00:29:09] Christian: Yeah. He couldn't get hit. Couldn't, Yeah. Couldn't get Yeah.

[00:29:11] Sandy: You can't pay the rent. Hopeless.

[00:29:13] Yeah. And

[00:29:14] feeling hopeless. And he had said to me, you know, Mom, I can't do this again.

[00:29:18] Christian: Yeah.

[00:29:18] Sandy: I can't keep going through this cycle.

[00:29:21] Christian: Cycle. And that's another, I can't do it. A very important aspect of the year, you know, because yes, six months, it's hard enough to get to six months, but that's when things get really tough. Yes. Because now you've got bills, now you have a responsibility that you obviously couldn't handle beforehand.

[00:29:36] Right. And no one's helping you learn how to. You know, complete these responsibilities and stuff like that. The loss of your license. Do you know how difficult it is to get a job? Well, you can't get a job without a license, but do you know how hard it is? For someone to, that's coming, starting at square zero.

[00:29:53] Well, you need to get down to the DMV and get your ID, and then you gotta take your ID to get your social security card, and then you know, that can be overwhelming for somebod,y absolutely overwhelming. And so if they don't receive support in these very basic things, it's much easier just to make a bad choice and go back to where you were

[00:30:11] Sandy: If you don't have a car

[00:30:13] Christian: Exactly.

[00:30:13] Sandy: How do you get to work?

[00:30:14] Christian: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:16] Sandy: When I worked as a rehabilitation counselor, it just amazed me how many men and women were kept out of work because they didn't have their driver's license.

[00:30:27] Christian: Yeah.

[00:30:28] Sandy: And they could not afford to have a car. Yeah. And, it's like the punishment. It was so, I thought much stronger than it needed to be.

[00:30:39] You need, if you can't get to work, how can you get yourself esteem back? How can you? That's it. How can you support your family? These people end up divorcing if they're not divorced before. Yeah. They can't support their kids. They don't even see their kids. Yeah. But yeah, it's just, it's a horrible cycle.

[00:30:59] Yeah. And the lack of support on every level,yeahh. I think it contributes to continuance, to relapses.

[00:31:07] Lindsay: Yeah. Well, it's a disease. It is. It is a disease. Right. And so in terms of how progress that's been made, what do you guys think, or what do you think is the most important thing for people to take away in terms of the stigma?

[00:31:23] Dave: Well, I just think that everybody has to realize that it is a disease. It's not a choice. It is a disease, and there has to be some sort of treatment. There has to be research into the treatment, and to just write these people off is, I mean, we're losing a hundred thousand people a year.

[00:31:43] And that's a huge number. Don't think people understand how large a number that is. And, you know, where we live in Western Pennsylvania, it's a weekly thing, or it was a daily thing for a while. Yeah. Now it's cut back a little bit, but it's still a weekly thing. People in their twenties and thirties are dying.

[00:32:01] Christian: Yeah.

[00:32:01] Dave: And then like, people are like, well, okay, they chose to die. So there it is. I mean, you've gotta change the way people view this situation. It has to be given a name, it has to be given a reason. And research has to go into the development of some kind of cure. Treatment, cure. Yeah. Not just sitting down and talking to someone.

[00:32:27] Right. There has to be something physical that can be.

[00:32:30] Christian: Right. One of the really important things we do here at Stable Recovery is ensuring that, you know, everybody here is motivated towards doing, doing what they need to do to not only get out of the hole that they dug for themselves. Okay. They've dug themselves into a hole. It's not about just getting out of the hole because then you're out of the hole, but you have no car, you don't have a job, you don't have any of that. It, you've gotta overcome that, you know, and so I. A large way I think it should be done is you find something that you wanna be successful at, right?

[00:33:04] Whether it's family, a job, whatever it is. But you have to build a life that's not worth losing over a drink or a drug, you know? And so that's gonna take a lot of work. You're gonna need a lot of help with that. So, surrounding yourself with like-minded individuals that are pushing you on a daily basis to keep up the fight, keep doing what you need to do, keep pushing forward.

[00:33:26] That's, you know, it's an altruistic thing. And it's absolutely necessary. This is a community problem that needs to be solved by the community, not just individual treatment centers. And, you know, a few, you know, this, needs to be, we need state and federal level help. This crisis, this is a hundred thousand people a year, you heard about it, it was headline news, a few years ago.

[00:33:51] Well, guess what? Better headlines have come along. Yeah. And, the problem never went away, but you don't hear about it as much anymore. But people are still dying every single day.

[00:34:02] Lindsay: Uncle Dave and I just wanna ask you this, and I understand if it's too personal, but you're a dentist. Dentist by trade.

[00:34:09] and I just mentioned that for context, but you said you resuscitated Alex three times.

[00:34:15] Dave: Well, the first time we did not have Narcan, so I had to do CPR and keep him alive.

[00:34:23] Lindsay: And you could do that 'cause you knew how to do it through your, until the

[00:34:26] Dave: EMTs arrived. Yeah, but they had Narcan. We did not have it, but after that first thing, that first occurrence, we had Narcan in the house, and we had to do it at least, I don't know, at least twice more. At least twice more with Narcan.

[00:34:42] Lindsay: What happened next for you after that first time of bringing him back? What was that like?

[00:34:47] Dave: Well, I, you know, that was a shock to me because I really didn't know. He was a teenager then. He was a teenager. I didn't really know what he was using. I mean, as I said, we were very naive.

[00:35:00] Yeah. Naive and experienced with this situation. But again, there's no education. 

[00:35:05] Lindsay: And there are men that I watched in this program share their stories that were the same exact situation.

[00:35:10] Sandy: But he was able to cover it up very well.

[00:35:12] Lindsay: Oh yeah. Yeah. You know, which is what they do.

[00:35:15] Dave: He would've died that night.

[00:35:16] Sandy: Yeah. Dave kept him alive.

[00:35:19] Dave: he fell in his bedroom, and he was against the door. Wow. Of the bedroom, and I guess pushed it over. he was like, you know, when he was going through what he was going through, he was actually touching the door with his foot and causing, I'm a very light, I'm a very light sleeper.

[00:35:37] Yeah. If I were not a light slipper, he would've died that night. Wow.

[00:35:41] So I heard this, and I go i,n and I couldn't open the door 'cause he was down. He was downright on the floor, right behind the door. So I had to push the door open in it right away. You know, I knew he was in really bad shape, you know, because the breathing is halting, you know, it's a halting breath. And so I started. We didn't have Narcan, as I said, so I started CPR, and she called 9 1 1.

[00:36:04] Christian: Yeah.

[00:36:05] Dave: Fortunate,, y they got there like 15 minutes, you know, it was about 15 minutes they got there, and they had Narcan. So they brought him. I mean, that's, it's amazing.

[00:36:16] You put a, you hit, not hit a person like that with Narcan. They're sitting up and talking to you in 10 seconds. They are in 10 seconds. They are 10 seconds.

[00:36:23] Christian: And Narcan is wonderful.

[00:36:24] Dave: He could be on the floor. On the floor, like you were thinking, he's dead. You hit him with Narc, and in 10 seconds, he's talking to you.

[00:36:30] Christian: Yeah. Narcan's a miracle drug, and without it, many more thousands would die. But here's the problem. Just bringing someone back to life is not enough. We've got, you know, that's the thing is I think the numbers are starting to skew, nationwide overdose rate, death fatalities are going down because of Narcan, but nobody's getting any better. Right. Right. Because these folks aren't receiving the treatment that they need. So all of these politicians are quick to say, We brought the overdose fatality rate down. We're doing such a good job. Narcan has done that, and it has saved lives. It is wonderful.

[00:37:07] But if you don't get that individual the help they need after they've been brought back to life, guess what? You're just gonna end up having a Narcan 'em again.

[00:37:15] That's not a solution to this problem.

[00:37:17] Dave: You know? He, every time we had to do that, he went to rehab.

[00:37:21] Christian: Yeah. Right after that. Yeah. I mean, it's not like we

[00:37:23] Dave: Just said, okay, we got him back.

[00:37:25] We got him back. Now, you know, he can do whatever he wants. Yeah. I mean, we put him in rehab every time.

[00:37:30] Christian: But did he receive the care he needed in rehab? Apparently not. Yeah.

[00:37:33] Dave: Apparently not.

[00:37:33] Christian: Yeah.

[00:37:34] Lindsay: And you, that's, we were talking about hitting rock bottom and Christian, when you talk to the men, I've seen you give your talk and, you asked them in this room, it was like 70 in this room, and you said, raise your hand if you wanna share what your rock bottom is.

[00:37:48] And that was a moment that was just so eye-opening to me, hearing each of their personal accounts, the rock bottom. What is the answer there? Because you guys brought up a good point. You aren't ready to let Alex hit rock bottom. And I don't know as a parent how you make the decision that you're going to do that.

[00:38:07] But nor do I think that's what should happen. What is the solution?

[00:38:11] Sandy: Well, I don't wanna

[00:38:12] say

[00:38:12] that we didn't want him to hit rock bottom. We didn't want to keep him out of our lives. Okay. So

[00:38:21] Christian: It's a big difference.

[00:38:21] Sandy: We decided that we would stay close. Our relationship.

[00:38:27] Christian: Yeah.

[00:38:27] Sandy: We wanted to keep a relationship.

[00:38:30] And I was telling you, in our local newspaper some years back, there was an article of a woman who said that, the counselor said, no matter what, if he comes, tries to get back in your house, don't let him in.

[00:38:46] Don't let him in. But he was an addict, and they told her that she was being mmadethey had a codependent relationship. Sure.

[00:38:55] And that she was not helping him. So she said the last thing she remembered and remembers of her son is her son banging on her door. Mom, let me please let me in. Just screaming, let me in. And that was the last time they heard of him. He died of an overdose that Yeah. Evening. And we decided that,

[00:39:18] Dave: Well, I didn't,

[00:39:18] Sandy: We didn't wanna do that.

[00:39:19] Dave: We didn't want him homeless. We didn't want him sleeping on the streets under a bridge somewhere. I don't know.

[00:39:27] Sandy: We didn't feel,

[00:39:28] Dave: We just decided that's not what we wanted to do with our only child.

[00:39:31] Sandy: Yeah. That was right. He's our only child, and we just kept thinking even if he's n,ot though,

[00:39:37] Lindsay: To be honest, even if he's not,yeahh.

[00:39:40] Might have been exactly the same. Yeah.

[00:39:43] Sandy: I don't think either of us would ever turn anybody away.

[00:39:47] Dave: Right.

[00:39:48] Sandy: And, in our heart, we wanna help. Of course, when he was in the states like that, we always made sure, or said you're gonna rehab, which he did.

[00:39:57] Dave: Oh no. We had other people say to us, thoughYou'rere lucky.

[00:39:59] Oh yeah, you're lucky he doesn't have brothers and sisters because he would poison them. And so if you have an addict. Who's a teenager or something, and he has younger siblings.

[00:40:10] Sandy: Maybe

[00:40:11] Dave: A lot of people recommend you get him out, get him,

[00:40:13] Sandy: Maybe you do

[00:40:13] Dave: The house, get him out, because he'll influence the other ones, and you'll have more than that on your hands.

[00:40:19] So,

[00:40:19] Lindsay: Yeah, Okay.

[00:40:20] Dave: So I don't, you know, I don't know. Everybody has their own opinion about this stuff, and it's just

[.00:40:24] Sandy: The other thing.

[00:40:25] Dave: There's no book on it. No, there's not,

[00:40:27] Sandy: There is in the statistics. Even then, I could not find, because this whole time I just kept reading everything I could, trying to study everything I could.

[00:40:38] And yeah, there are people who say, you gotta kick 'em out, let 'em hit rock bottom in that way. And I've never seen any evidence in terms of numbers or research. That really helps. I'm not seeing that.

[00:40:53] Christian: No, you probably won't. You know, and that, that's the other thing is there aren't enough statistics.

[00:40:57] Right. You know, to, for a mom that's feverishly researching what to do if this is going on, you know,

[00:41:03] Dave: We're thinking rock bottom is death. Well, so, I mean, that's not a solution. Andwelll that wasn't a solution for us.

[00:41:09] Sandy: Although, I have to say, when I read what he's written in his journals, I think he did hit rock bottom

[00:41:17] Dave: Sure.

[00:41:17] Sandy: Many times.

[00:41:18] Dave: And when he apologized to me over and over again, Oh.

[00:41:21] Sandy: When he was in,

[00:41:22] Dave: Every time he came outta rehab, he's apologized.

[00:41:23] Christian: Yeah. Every time, remorse, guilt, and shame. Same thing every time, you know,

[00:41:28] Sandy: But he, just his journals from when he was in treatment. Certainly sounded like somebody who had hit rock bottom.

[00:41:37] Christian: Absolutely. You know, and then he came out, I hit rock bottom 50 times. Yeah. Then would find a new bottom for my rock bottom. You know?

[00:41:44] Sandy: So I, that' just it.

[00:41:45] Christian: I don't think there is a, concrete, well, that must be the bottom, you know, so, I mean,yeaheah. And you said it eventually that rock bottom's gonna be death.

[00:41:55] and that's, ultimately, where every one of us goes untreated.

[00:41:59] Lindsay: And you guys had talked about, as you said, he had different jobs, and I remember Alex working at a restaurant that he seemed to really enjoy when I talked to him. But then even that, it's like, what happens then? At some point, he's exposed to

[00:42:16] Sandy: Stressors.

[00:42:17] Lindsay: What makes him?

[00:42:19] Sandy: People in the community. And he's able to get it again, people, places, and things that start a fire,

[00:42:28] Dave: You know, on a Friday night, somebody wants to party.

[00:42:30] Christian: Yeah,

[00:42:30] Dave: It's all it takes,

[00:42:31] Christian: You know, and especially on a restaurant scene, you know, I used alcohol to quit drugs and drugs to quit alcohol.

[00:42:37] I, I went through those phases where I, you know, really well, the drugs are the problem, so I'm just gonna drink. And the alcohol would become a problem. Well, I'm just gonna, you know, yeah.

[00:42:46] Dave: For those people, having a beer is not partying.

[00:42:50] Christian: No, we don't know how to have a drink. It's just, you know,

[00:42:54] Lindsay: You talked about yourself having the needle in your arm. Yeah. And just realizing that maybe that would be better if the outcome was not to be here anymore.

[00:43:06] Christian: Absolutely. No. There, you know, my goal near the end of my addiction was to just not wake up. I just did not want to wake up and hurt my family.

[00:43:17] I didn't wanna wake up and burden society. I didn't wanna wake up and, you know, go through the grueling aspects of finding. The money to get what I needed, finding the dope dealer to spend the money at, and then finding a place to go do the dope. It was just there. It is really hard work to stay high once you've lost your rent, once you've lost money, and mom and dad aren't supporting the habit anymore, all of that kind of stuff, it becomes work.

[00:43:48] and I was tired. I was really tired. I'm sure Alex got to that point many times, and so yeah, death seems. I can remember going to jail and being relieved that I was at least gonna break the cycle for a period of time. I knew where I was gonna sleep. I knew that I was gonna eat, and I was not gonna have access to drugs.

[00:44:10] You know? And so that, you know, but there were many nights that I lay down, and I thought, man, please let this be the last time that I,

[00:44:16] Dave: Well, the legal system is another problem because I remember his judge saying to him that one time, if you do this again, you're going to jail for a year.

[00:44:26] Sandy: 11 months.

[00:44:27] Dave: 11 months. He said, If you do this again, if you're in front of me again, you're going to jail for 11 months next time. And so I truly believe that was the last little piece that caused him to, yeah. Kill himself, check out. And I swear, I know the last time was suicide.

[00:44:45] Christian: It's a checkout. 

[00:44:45] Dave: Because he chose to do it

[00:44:47] Christian: No, when you were describing

[00:44:48] Dave: No one was around.

[00:44:50] No one was around, no one was there to save him. Yeah. I wasn't there to save him.

[00:44:52] Sandy: And he didn't do the test strips,

[00:44:54] Dave: he didn't do the test strip for the fentanyl.

[00:44:55] Sandy: Yeah.

[00:44:55] Dave: He had those. And, yeah. And I remember the judge saying, Next time you come before me, it's 11 months in jail.

[00:45:02] And he told me when he, after that, he said, I'm not going back to jail. I'm not going back to jail. There's no way, and so it was just another, for sure. Another strike.

[00:45:12] Sandy: I said to Dave when the judge said that and wrote that down, and in his recommendations said, Well, the judge just put a death sentence on our son.

[00:45:24] Christian: He did.

[00:45:24] Sandy: Because it's so easy to relapse.

[00:45:28] Christian: Absolutely.

[00:45:29] Sandy: And to threaten that.

[00:45:33] Christian: Which serves no purpose for a mental illness, serves no purpose.

[00:45:37] Sandy: Right. For a mental illness, serves

[00:45:38] Dave: No purpose at all.

[00:45:40] Christian: None. No.

[00:45:41] Sandy: Granted, I mean, it is a medical problem. It's a severe medical problem. There you go. And I don't want to take this lightly, but you're not gonna put a diabetic in the hospital because they decided to or gel, or because they don't, they ate candy, or they're not following their diet.

[00:46:01] Christian: That's a great overeat. That's a great way to put it.

[00:46:02] Sandy: You're not going to put somebody who's morbidly obese because they're not following their diet and they have a really bad heart problem. Right. You know, there are so many It's, it is a really blind system.

[00:46:19] Lindsay: For all the advancements in medicine, why can't there be an advancement? That is something that can be helpful for, I think it was interesting, Christian, when you were talking about even the way you felt like a need for acceptance, who, it seems that the trigger for some of this stuff is similar. Right? True. So just there's so much I think to explore,

[00:46:43] Sandy: Well, while Alex was going through this, and even now, I tried to keep up on the research that's being done.

[00:46:50] Because there is research being done by the NIH, and I was feeling really optimistic. There are some good.  thingsPrograms, good research. There, there's one where they were testing it all on rats and ready to start on humans. Yeah.A vaccine that would help. Just recently, with alcoholism, and I know I'm gonna say the wrong word, but they have identified the synapse where the brain wants to seek the pleasure of alcohol.

[00:47:27] And, you know, once you are able to identify the parts of the brain where addiction is centered and where the synapses happen, then you can maybe come up with some really good ideas. Yeah. I did put Alex on a list. WVU had advertised they were starting to do, inserting electrodes, yeah. Into the part of the brain that governs.

[00:47:53] Addiction, and I put, and they were looking for human beings to be part of it. And I put him on the list, and you know, I have, I used my email address, and he still hasn't been called, which means to me that there are other people out there that I'm sure are on that list, that are hoping to get,

[00:48:14] Christian: They are making progress with that.

[00:48:16] There, there's actually, you know, and I don't know it well, but it's something that they can place. Yes. And it helps with the withdrawal symptoms of it. And then hopefully it will help sustain the curb, the cravings that go along with that kind of stuff, you know. So I think they're making some progress with that.

[00:48:34] But

[00:48:34] Sandy: I would like to see the NIH, really. Talk about these to the public to take away the stigma that it's not just a just ay no. Decision. Right. It is a medical issue,   nd there are vaccines that are a hope, hopefully will be available in the near future. Yeah. And that there are treatments, medical treatments, to treat this medical problem.

[00:49:00] Dave: Well, they, you know, they always went with the methadone. Yeah. They're thinking, well, methadone is gonna do this instead of using heroin. Yeah. Yeah. You can just give them a little bit of methadone every day, and that'll be fine.

[00:49:09] Christian: Yeah.

[00:49:10] Dave: Well, maybe you could attest to that. I don't know if you ever went to the clinic.

[00:49:14] Christian: No. Well, I didn't go to the methadone clinic, but I've got guys that are literally in the program because of the methadone. Yeah. Like, like it, you know,

[00:49:20] Sandy: They get addicted to the methadone. It doesn't,

[00:49:22] Christian: That doesn't fix the problem. That is a crutch.

[00:49:25] Dave: We drove him 20 miles every day.

[00:49:27] Christian: Yeah. To get his dose into the Meso clinic.

[00:49:29] Dave: yeah,

[00:49:31] Christian: No, it takes more than that. And that's where, you know, we've got the horses out here that we're utilizing to help support our program. And there's something, and talking about the brain and how the disease centers there and stuff like that, but something about being around these horses.

[00:49:47] It's some sort of reaction in the brain or something like choking that. Choking, but exactly. It's helping human beings release the right chemicals, or whatever that is, which gives us time to work on the other things so that these folks have a chance to get better. Right. That is true.

[00:50:01] You know, and so, I'd really, I hope, you know, stable recovery's only been around three years, but I'm hoping that through some research, you're gonna find that I, don't know if it's the prefrontal cortex, but something about being, maybe it's not just horses, maybe it's animals. Maybe, you know, something, maybe it's the purpose of a decent job, but something that helps rebuild these synapses or whatever it is. I'm not, you know, I'm not educated in that area, but there, there are, signs especially in our program right now, that there are ways to fix this. Yeah. You know, and help someone receive the care and support that they need so that they.

[00:50:40] They can sustain that. You know, here's, I tell my guys and girls this all the time, the very thing that tells your heart to beat and your lungs to breathe is also telling you that it's okay to stick a needle in your arm. It's your brain. You know, the very same thing, like the disease of addiction will literally whisper to you late at night when you're feeling really lonely, and nobody's, you know, that type of stuff.

[00:51:03] That's when these thoughts will occur, that, man, I should probably just give up and go do this or go do that. And that's, you know, that's the super scary part of it. So, again, the altruism of being surrounded by other folks who are motivated towards doing the right thing. Yeah. When that thought occurs, you can wake somebody up and say, Hey dude, I just thought about using again.

[00:51:27] help me through this, or whatever that is, you know? But a lot of these places where you end up, these halfway houses and sober livings and stuff like that one. Bad egg. One individual coming into that environment that is not motivated towards change, that is not really there to get better, be around that individual for any amount of time at all, and all the progress that you've made, all the progress that you've made through treatment and therapy and whatever that is, sitting on the couch with a guy talking about, Hey, I'm gonna go get high tonight.

[00:52:00] You'll lose every bit of that, you know? And so the responsibility for me, for all the men and women in stable recovery, is to make sure that they have a safe, healthy environment to do the really hard work that they need to do, so that they have a chance at sustaining recovery.

[00:52:16] Lindsay: So Alex, you know, I described a little bit about him, but he was.

[00:52:21] I, I told them like, he would always call me cousin, you know? Yeah. Like, so our relationship was when we would see each other, which was more than just on holidays. But he was just, he was always so caring about, like, the individual stories that you brought. Like, he was just so kind and interested in everyone.

[00:52:38] It wasn't just, you know, not just relatives, not friends, but my aunt, you found his, some of his writings. Yeah. And so did he just always journal? Because I wanna share one.

[00:52:49] Sandy: Oh, he did. Throughout his life, he would do some journaling, but I found those.

[00:52:55] Lindsay: So he's, like I said, just so smart.

[00:52:59] But, so I wanted to read this one because, I mean, there are so many to choose from, but it's called group home, and I think that it really is. I would just love to hear your thoughts, Christian, too, and to get what you guys think. He, I mean, it's so strange to read these now, right? But he wrote about group home living at the group home, nowhere to go.

[00:53:21] underachieving with nothing to show. Feed the animals in the cafe. Institutionalize the strays. If you don't do what we say, it's back to jail. Enjoy your stay, condescension at its finest. We are human beings. Dignity, short supply, lack of human kindness. Most of us will die like dogs lying in the streets.

[00:53:48] Statistically. We're human corp walking corpses, redemption out of reach. I mean, what did you just find this? Did you know that he wrote this?

[00:54:03] Sandy: I had just read that one. Yeah. I knew that he had a number of things, but it took a while for me to be able to. To read his things. So

[00:54:14] Lindsay: I know, I mean, and I've never done this for, you know, to go out publicly either, but I just, based on what we're talking about the homes, this is his account of what he was feeling, being in a home, being in rehab, being in a halfway house, wherever he wrote this.

[00:54:30] and it's exactly the opposite of what this program is, preaching and lying. This is the scenario that so many people fall into. And I just think for one person to hear this, who is a family member of someone who has someone going through this, you know? Right.

[00:54:51] Christian: Shame on us for ever allowing a human being that it's supposed to be in a positive environment to get help for allowing a human being to feel that way. To feel that.

[00:55:02] Sandy: Right. And that's what he would say when he was in treatment. He really had a hard time. And, in the group homes, he really had a hard time feeling good about himself.

[00:55:14] Christian: Yeah.

[00:55:15] Sandy: Because there were rules that were made for I'm sure to keep it running smoothly.

[00:55:23] Right. But did not focus on individual needs. But

[00:55:27] Lindsay: Yeah. And I mean, there is so much more. I mean, I don't say that to put this out there and to just have it be like, oh, look at what he's saying about his horrible experience. But I think that there's so much value in understanding what's going through someone's mind.

[00:55:40] Sandy: Well, and the depth, the depth of his despair.

[00:55:44] Christian: Yes. Yeah.

[00:55:44] Sandy: Yes.

[00:55:45] Christian: That's,

[00:55:45] it. Right? Like he is desperate at that point in, in my head. And, you know, but when I hear that's aga guyhat's, in a place that is still absolutely desperate for help. And you're supposed to be in a place that's being helpful.

[00:56:01] And obviously that's not going on in that situation.

[00:56:04] Lindsay: And meanwhile, maybe a few months before or after, he's at my grandma's house asking questions. Yeah. Right. Like, the juxtaposition of understanding that is like fairly jarring.

[00:56:16] Sandy: But that's the hard part of parenting someone who has this disease.'Causee I, it's what do you do?

[00:56:25] You know, what can, what could we have done? What could I have done with Alex in front of me? What, so what do you need? How can I help you? What do you need to

[00:56:37] Dave: We said that,

[00:56:38] Sandy: That's what I said. Yeah. We would say to what do we need to do?

[00:56:42] Dave: I told you every time, if you're feeling like you wanna use, call me.

[00:56:44] Just please call me before you use.

[00:56:48] Lindsay: Yeah. Well, I mean, so Christian for, you know, you guys have the good problem of having so many people now, especially since people know ..Sure. What's going on here, of wanting to be here for people that don't have access for whatever reason, to here, to stable recovery or places like this, want, can they do?

[00:57:10] What should they do?

[00:57:11] Christian: Well, they've gotta find someone, you know, and whether that's a sponsor or mentor or someone, you know, around that, that, you know, can help them. And I, you know, I wish we could take everybody to stable recovery. Yeah. But, you know, we have gotta get better, in the treatment realm, in the recovery realm at producing places that.

[00:57:36] Pay close attention to every individual. If you are gonna take on the care of these very sick people, you had better doggone, if I'm telling you that, yes, send your son to me, we're gonna take care of him. That is my responsibility to take care of him. Everything around that, you know, and then we will get into the argument of, you know, well, he's an adult and well this, that and the other.

[00:58:01 Studies have shown that we stop maturing at the age at which we start using. So he's really not an adult, maturity-wise. Right, right, and you'll see that in just about every recovery home around, you know. I, myself, was probably a 14-year-old boy whenever, and I was 40 years old when I finally started to get treatment.

[00:58:21] But probably, you know, as far as maturity goes, I had not matured enough. But it's attention to the individual, right? Every single human being deserves the attention they need to get better, right? And you can't just throw this blanket coverage out there and hope that it works for a few, 'cause that's what's going on.

[00:58:39] And it will work for a few. But what about those alexes that it doesn't? And here we are sitting with two very distraught parents who did everything in their power to save their son, but had nobody helped them save their son. That's, you know, that's wrong on every level, right? it, takes

[00:59:02] Lindsay: So seriously, if someone's like, if someone's in that position right now, is it a phone call somewhere? Is it a, like, where do you even

[00:59:09] Christian: Yeah. You know, and I, you know, I,t hee unfortunate fact of the matter. Right now, the current state of treatment in our country, is it has been recognized, that you can make money off of these individuals. And so I wish I could give you a long list of numbers, of good places that wanna support PE individuals and help get them better.

[00:59:35] but the unfortunate fact of the matter is, there, there aren't, there are some, but there's not a lot, you know? And so, I don't have a good answer for that, Lindsay. I wish I could, you know, that, that's the sad fact. That's why we're sitting here right now, is there aren't enough good options for a mom, a dad, an individual male or female, what it doesn't matter, to say, Hey, do this and this is what's gonna happen with that, you know?

[01:00:01] Dave: So, I don't think there's ever been anything proven out there that actually works for everybody. That's the,

[01:00:06] Christian: For everybody. No, you're exactly right about that.

[01:00:09] Dave: And so therefore, yeah. You can send somebody to a place where you're paying $15,000 a month. That's right. For them to be in a rehab.

[01:00:17] Christian: That's right.

[01:00:18] Dave: And they'll come out and they'll use them again.

[01:00:20] Christian: Yeah. I get a lot of those guys here, you know, and that's where

[01:00:24] Dave: There are some very expensive places out there.

[01:00:25] Christian: Very expensive places. You know,

[01:00:26] Dave: That's the Hollywood actors

[01:00:28] Christian: Yeah.

[01:00:30] Dave: Who has children that have gone through this?

[01:00:31] Christian: Right. Yeah. No, we've gotta do better, as a nation, in, in, you know, we were talking about, prevention and education, you know, and we were talking a little bit about the DARE program and just say, no. And, you know, that's the best that we have as far as education and prevention right now.

[01:00:51] That's not good enough. It's not like we've got to come up with better ways to help support the family first, because that's where this starts. You know? I mean, mom, dad, they need the knowledge. You guys have said it several times. You didn't know what to do. Well, we gotta do better about letting them know what to do.

[01:01:11] Right. You know, so we're way behind the eight ball when it comes to addiction in this country. It's why it's one of our biggest problems. You know, we're not doing enough about it. Times, especially if you're poverty-stricken or don't have an education or something like that, it is a really hard time to live right now.

[01:01:32] And so, you know, we're post-COVID now, and we're just now feeling the effects that it had on people in addiction and alcoholism and stuff like that. Yeah. There were a lot of people who never would've become addicted until COVID came around. And so now we have this explosion of individuals that never intended on ever being an alcoholic or drug addict, but they were locked inside their home, isolated for long periods of time, with zero support, and they are now. Starting to struggle with these substances, you know? So, we have a lot of work to do.

[01:02:08] Lindsay: My, my mom, Alex's aunt shared a, that she had sent them a letter, or he had, sorry, Alex had sent my parents a letter, and he referenced that he was the things that he was working on and that he was, you know, trying both, like physically trying to get more fit, but then other things that he was doing to just try to heal.

[01:02:28] and it felt like he was, you know, he didn't lose the sense of wanting people to be proud of him, you know? Yeah. And I know you guys were so proud of him. If there were, what would you say through the whole journey makes you the most proud of, Alex?

[01:02:45] Sandy: He just tried really hard.

[01:02:54] Dave: Yeah. I, you know, I don't know what else to say except that it was a struggle. And, He admitted such, and he apologized profusely many times, but couldn't overcome. Yeah. And, but that's a sad thing.

[01:03:17] Sandy: He just fought, and he lost.

[01:03:23] Christian: Yeah. And that's where, which is the fabulous, you know, no amount of willpower.

[01:03:26] And we discuss that a lot. No amount of willpower can pull you out of this. Like, it takes more, it takes the support that we've talked about. It takes the education that we've talked about. It takes society to remove the stigma and be willing to give these folks a chance, right? Like they.

[01:03:45] They don't need to go work at a fast food restaurant or at a car wash or something like that and be asked to feel better about themselves. Well, now you're 35 years old, making minimum wage, that's not gonna help anybody, right? We've gotta find ways to help support these folks. And again, it's a community problem, and unless the community is willing to help, it's not gonna get any better, you know?

[01:04:06] Lindsay: Yeah.

[01:04:08] Christian: We're always gonna have these barriers.

[01:04:11] Lindsay: Yeah. It takes people coming together, and that's it. And continuing to talk about it.

[01:04:14] Christian: That's it. A moving statement

[01:04:16] Lindsay: When we talk about it, like, you know, like you guys have talked about it.

[01:04:18] Christian: Yeah.

[01:04:20] Lindsay: Uncle Dave, you talk about like, and I know I keep saying Uncle Dave, sorry, I just call you Dave.

[01:04:25] I feel like I'm 10. Dave, you mentioned just feeling hopeless and that you feel such a level of guilt, a nd I assume that this is something that just goes along with it, you know, but I hope that you find peace, and just knowing how much you did.

[01:04:42] Dave: Yeah. I try to hold onto that. But, you know, it's, it's hard to think that I wasn't able to save him.

[01:04:52] Yeah. No matter what I did. I wasn't able,

[01:04:56] Christian: Well, I'd like to say, you know, and I don't know if it'll help at all, but, you know, no amount of love would've saved me. And that I, I mean that with everything inside of me, my mom, who was my rock, my superstar, you know, she did everything in her power.

[01:05:14] She was actually dying of cancer and, she was still worried about me, you know, and, even going, you know, seeing and going through that, I wanted so badly for her to stop worrying and being scared and, you know, and I could not do it. I just couldn't do it. I tried everything I could. So I'm certain that Alex was the same way.

[01:05:37] Like it wasn't ever intentional to harm her or, you know, it's just one of those things that, once he got in, he just couldn't get out. And that's, there, there are lots of other people suffering just like that right now. Just like that. Yep. My kids, the love of my kids. You know, I can remember Christmas time, I was I had just gotten 'em all bikes for Christmas, a nd I was on my way to take their bikes back because I needed money for dope.

[01:06:11] And, you know, that feeling of what am I about to do? How in the world did you ever become such a heinous person that you're literally gonna take your kids' Christmas presents back because you're outta money? You know, that is not who I am. It is not who I am. That's who I had become because of the drugs.

[01:06:32] Dave: Right. Well, Alex always said he would never have children. He said, I'm not gonna bring, child into this. Yeah. Into this situation. Yeah. I'll give him credit for that. I, you know, I, you know, I don't know.

[01:06:43] Christian: There were many times that I, you know, had that very, you know. I mean,

[01:06:48] Dave: He was in a relationship with a woman and, you know, just, there was no way he would’ve continued that.

[01:06:56] Lindsay: And he found happiness.

[01:06:57] Sandy: Yes. Yeah. Right.

[01:06:58] Dave: Yeah. I think he did with, her for a while anyway.

[01:07:03] Sandy: I think

[01:07:04] Dave: He was married once, too. Yeah.

[01:07:06] Sandy: But I think that the people that were in his life, he loved, yeah. His girlfriend and I know he loved us, but the disease was bigger.

[01:07:18] Christian: It is.

[01:07:18] Sandy: It was bigger. And like I said, I have no doubt that he fought, and I know he fought so hard that that's why in one of my last conversations with him was when he said, I can't do this again.

[01:07:33] Christian: Yeah. Yeah. And I can give you an example. You know, you're a mom who lost a child, but I know mom addicted moms.

[01:07:42] Oh, that, lose their, oh yeah. Even the love you feel for Alex, that connection between a mother and her child. Yeah. This disease will rip that apart. That's how strong it is. It can literally break a maternal instinct that is literally in our DNA; that's the power of addiction. It can literally disconnect that, you know?

[01:08:03] So, I mean, I hope that puts it into perspective. Yeah. That is literally, you know, hundreds of thousands of years of humanity, and that maternal instinct, which is literally encoded into your DNA addiction can overcome that. It's un it's unreal. It's the most powerful force out there.

[01:08:20] Lindsay: What have you observed with the horses and with the men that are starting this program? If it's, if there's a switch that sort of goes off, it's what it is…

[01:08:29] Christian: Yeah, and I don't have the words for it, but you've met Josh Franks, and he's the example I used just because it was in the very beginning of stable recovery, a nd it was one of the more profound changes that I saw in how quickly that was.

[01:08:43] You know, I saw a guy come in here who was absolutely broken in every way that I know you two have seen before. Andd within days of being in a barn, he was smiling,, and he was laughing and he was interacting with his peers, and he started to feel better about himself. Like, wow, I have a chance to be something, you know?

[01:09:05] And, there's something about horses that puts broken people back together and, you know, we need to find out what that is. We need to replicate it, and we need to get it out there to the people that need it so that, you know, we can help more people.

[01:09:21] Lindsay: Sandy, is there anything you would say to people that might be in a similar situation?

[01:09:28] Sandy: That's a really good question because you, we, went through man, years of frustration. I guess I still believe in staying close. And I still believe that, well, somebody is struggling as hard as they are with their self-esteem and guilt and all those other things that they need to know that there are people who still love them.

[01:09:54] I just feel very strongly that they know that their care, that someone does care about you. And I never wanted that to leave Alex. And, I think that, as Dave and I were saying, I really think that at the end, when he did relapse, and as he said he can't do this again, and he knew that there was this sentence of 11 years or 11 months ahead of him, I think he quit.

[01:10:27] I don't think he felt like he could.

[01:10:30] Christian: Yeah. Go on. Yeah. He was tired

[01:10:31] Sandy: And I think that he was tired.

[01:10:33] Christian: He gave u up, and look, I can completely relate to that. Yeah.

[01:10:38] Sandy: And I think a lot of people do that

[01:10:40] Christian: Death, the thought of death was the only thing that brought me peace. And that's a staggering statement.

[01:10:46] But the thought of not having to wake up was the only thing that would bring me any peace.

[01:10:52] Sandy: Yeah. You know, I sort of wonder what makes a judge, what makes the, not the district attorney, but the attorneys represent, not my son, but on the other side, you know, what makes them come up with these punishments?

[01:11:13] Christian: Ignorance. That's the only word you can put on top. We're not taking the time to understand. There's just, there you go. You know, just not putting in the time, and, you know, we're guilty of that. How many hundreds of thousands of people died before we realized OxyContin was killing them?

[01:11:30] Yeah. You know, I mean, it's just like, like people were literally dying every single day, and it took years after that before we ever did anything about it. That's right. And now we're still suffering, you know, the repercussions of what that did. Heroin had almost gone away in America. It was almost gone.

[01:11:47] Like we had done a really good job of moving away from heroin, until OxyContin cameon the scene, and then heroin came back and overdose, and now fentanyl. You know, and it's just like, how are we letting this get worse and not making it any better? Yeah. Like, that's insane to me.

[01:12:05] Sandy: My husband had a really good point whenever they settled the opioid case. Sure. So the money goes to this, the police, and the judicial system, to that part of it. And it's like, well, what about these people who are suffering? Yeah. That cannot afford. To get a car, to go to work. I mean, maybe some money should be trickling in to help those who help addicts live in a place other than on the street.

[01:12:36] Dave: I don't think we have a halfway house in our entire county.

[01:12:39] Sandy: I think we do now

[01:12:40] Dave: We do now. We didn't for a long time.

[01:12:42] Sandy: Yeah. Not for a long time. Nobody wanted, nobody wants

[01:12:44] Christian: Kentucky has actually done a good job with the opioid money. they,

[01:12:47] Sandy: Pardon me?

[01:12:47] Christian: They set up a, Kentucky has done a good job with the opioid.

[01:12:51] They gave that to facilities like Stable Recovery, and the treatment places actually got the money. Not all of it. A lot of, you know, so,

[01:12:59] Sandy: So they did that also. But I'm talking about the people who are suffering. Yeah. Like when No, like to help them after they're done with the treatment.

[01:13:07] Christian: There you go.

[01:13:08] Sandy: Yeah. You go, I remember the last time, well, not the last time, he was in treatment, a nd he wanted to come back to Greensburg, and he didn't have an apartment. And mom, would you help me? Yeah. They told me I could stay at the halfway house or that I couldn't use their phone for an hour every day.

[01:13:30] And try to call apartments, but that doesn't give you much time.

[01:13:36] Christian: Well, think about what you just said. So we're asking somebody to completely rebuild their life. To completely, yeah. And you get to use a phone for an hour a day. Yeah. That's the resource he was given. Here's a phone for an hour a day.

[01:13:48] Sandy: Yeah.

[01:13:48] Christian: Rebuild your life with that.

[01:13:50] Sandy: Call the right people. Yeah. Call the call. It's insane.

[01:13:53] Christian: To find one is hard to even limit the amount of time that somebody can try to rebuild their life.

[01:13:58] Dave: He's not even in the county where we live. Wow. It's in a different county. Wow.

[01:14:02] Lindsay: Are there, are there small, like possibly meaningful things that you think could be done for families that suspect someone is using or that think that they could have something like this happening?

[01:14:16] Christian: There are really good places out there. And it's not just stable recovery, so. Unfortunately, you did a ton of research, you know, and I hate to use this word when we're talking about life or death, but it's, you're almost lucky if you happen to come across the right one. Yeah. And it shouldn't be that way, you know, like it shouldn't be luck of the draw.

[01:14:37] You know, but I literally get off the phone with moms all the time, and they sayOhoh my God, I'm so lucky. You know, they just happened to,call the right number where they heard the right things and stuff like that. That's wrong in and of itself. Yeah. It should not be luck on whether you get to support your son or help your son, you know?

[01:14:57] Sandy: Yeah. In our county, they give a list of facilities. And you would. I hope that you chose a good one. Well, they have to have a bed too.

[01:15:07] Christian: They have to have a bed. That's the other thing.

[01:15:08] Dave: A lot of times there's no openings.

[01:15:09] Christian: Yeah, no, that's a problem that every treatment provider, yeah.

[01:15:13] faces is, you know, the problem. And that's again, why aren't we talking more about the problem? We can't even get these folks in to help 'em. We're so inundated.

[01:15:22] Sandy: Right.

[01:15:23] Christian: So, you know, there's where a lot of the money could have gone is let's just start some new facilities and get some more beds.

[01:15:28] But we're not even doing that.

[01:15:30] Sandy: We have a good program in our county called Sage's Army. I was telling you about, and that is probably a good place. It's private to start. Yeah. Started by an amazing man who lost a side.

[01:15:43] Christian: There are good places out there,

[01:15:45] Sandy: An overdose. And, you know, they would be able to provide you with ideas on places to go for treatment.

[01:15:55] But to, you know, maybe the initial steps. Yeah. Other than that, I'm not really sure, and I have to just say I've been out of the entry or the beginning steps for so long. Yeah. That I really haven't kept up. Yeah. In my area. Our area, what's available for that age group?

[01:16:11] Dave: Alex's funeral provided one of their biggest donations of all time

[01:16:16] Sandy: Yeah.

[01:16:16] To this. We recommended that people donate to Sage's army. Wow. Because they were such a good program.

[01:16:22] Dave: It was a huge, it was a huge donation. And they couldn't thank us enough for Yeah. The Don, oh God, they're the Sages' army. Very appreciated. How would, remember there were 300 people at his funeral?

[01:16:33] Lindsay: Yeah. There were.

[01:16:34] And that was so, that struck me so much because there were people who were all ages who really cared about Alex, at had great stories about parts of his life I never knew about, but like, people who were in the band with him when he was in high school, his band that he made.

[01:16:54] Yeah. And I think that was my first inkling. That was before I had been here like, like, you know, I know who he is as a person, but you also year of the struggle. You see the struggle, and it's just.

[01:17:08] Dave: He touched a lot of people.

[01:17:09] Lindsay: He touched a ton of people. And it also made me think this could happen to anybody.

[01:17:14] It really could happen to anybody, is what we keep saying. And it doesn't discriminate, as we've seen, as we've talked about. But the people who were coming up saying, I worked with Alex at this restaurant, I worked with him at this restaurant. And he just because of how,

[01:17:29] Christian: Yeah.

[01:17:29] Lindsay: How was he? How would you describe what Alex was like?

[01:17:35] Dave: He was a caring individual. He wanted to know how your life was going. Even though his life was not going well. Yeah. He was more worried about how yours was going. That's, he talked to people all the time. He was a caring individual. I don't know how else to say it.

[01:17:54] Sandy: You know, I think one of the best illustrations is if we went out to eat, if he saw an elderly person walking into a restaurant, he'd go up and hold the door for them.

[01:18:05] Wow, and people would say, What a nice son you have. Yeah. And we got that a lot. He really reached out to other people, and he liked helping other people. I think those are his best qualities.

[01:19:20] Lindsay: You guys are doing a lot of good by sharing your story.

[01:19:22] Christian: That's a fact. Yep.

[01:19:23] Lindsay: Thank you. Yeah, it will help. Thank you.

[01:19:25] Christian: I hope that, I hope somebody.Yes. I hope that ht will. It will.

[01:19:30] Lindsay: Yeah,

[01:19:32] Dave: It will.

[01:19:33] It's not easy sitting here, noo. Tell you that.

[01:20:58] Christian: I tell our folks here all the time, and we talked about it, I think previously, it's one bad day and everything that everyone has worked so hard for. Yeah. You know, and that's the most for me, you know, being on this side of things, it, when we lose a guy, you know, maybe not the debt, but you know, the amount of work and to see how good they were doing, feeling about themselves and their family and all of that.

[01:21:24] And then all of a sudden, the wrong set of circumstances causes them to make one bad choice, one bad choice. And here we are, right back at square one, and now we've gotta go back and redo every bit of the work that we just went through. You know, it's, you talk about disheartening. You guys have been through it; it's a tough deal.

[01:21:45] It's a tough deal. Super tough.

[01:21:49] Lindsay: Thank you, guys.

[01:21:50] Christian: Yeah.

[01:21:51] Lindsay: Anything else you wanna say? You, I'm not shaking your hand. No, thank you. No, I'm closing. No, you good? Is there anything else that you

[01:22:01] Sandy: I don't think so. Except I do wanna say, and I hope I can say this without really crying, but

[01:22:13] For the 31 years that we had him, he was a wonderful person, a nd I would go through the same thing again. Yeah,

[01:22:29] Lindsay: That's true.

[01:22:32] Dave: Almost made it.

[01:22:32] Sandy: I almost made it.

[01:22:35] Christian: Wow. Almost. I can't believe you did as well as you did, both of you, to be honest.

[01:22:39] Lindsay: But that's important. I love that you just said that. That's really important.

[01:22:42] Christian: It's super important,

[01:22:43] Sandy: but I think maybe that's a,

[01:22:44] Christian: These are good people.

[01:22:45] Sandy: That's a message for other people that it might feel like hell, but it's still your child.

[01:22:53] Yeah. And there are still wonderful things about your child.

[01:22:56] Christian: They're good.

[01:22:56] Sandy: The addiction is a bad thing, but there are so many wonderful things about them, and, 'm grateful we had him in our life.

[01:23:03] Lindsay: To shed a light on the kind of parents that we're sitting next to. They're both absolutely amazing, and Sandy. Literally on her own

[01:23:10] went into a pool in the Marriott at Saratoga with my son and was jumping off the side of the pool. And this was recent, and just, they had their own amazing play date. And it is the one thing my son talks about. So, you know, I think for people that are listening to this that are just would never expect anything like your circumstances, it is, it really can happen to anyone.

[01:23:32] Yeah. And I think the parents that you have been, that you are, it is exactly what Alex needed. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It really is. Thank you.

[01:23:42] Christian: Yeah.

[01:23:43] Lindsay: And the time that you gave him to come back to that warm environment every time he did. And see the love that you gave him, that's enough. You know, it really is.

[01:23:53] I wanna thank everyone at Stable Recovery for opening their doors and for Christian for being so honest in his story and sharing that, and certainly my aunt and uncle for being willing to go and open up and just be so vulnerable. And their story about losing Alex and what they went through. If you are inspired to take action, we are including links that are helpful, including Stable Recovery on the show notes, in the show notes.

[01:24:20] One thing I did wanna mention is, you know, we have been told that from now, during this holiday season, we know the holidays are, they're hard for a lot of people, but especially for addicts who are going through a recovery program. This time of year, starting from now where we are until well into January, is known it is the hardest time for them.

[01:24:41] Certainly, they're missing families. It is when people often feel loneliness. So, if you are feeling that you wanna support, please consider it. I also wanted to share that. My aunt and uncle have this unique connection to Lexington, which I didn't realize until we went to Stable Recovery, because my cousin is adopted and they got him from a family that was in Louisville.

[01:25:06] And they said when they went on the trip to go to Louisville, that they actually stopped by Lexington first to take a look around. And I thought it was ironic that it was the first time they'd been back. Again, I just, for families that are going through this, we see you, and I certainly learned so much from this conversation and what my aunt and my uncle have personally dealt with, as well as Christian.

[01:25:27] And thank you so much for being here. I wanna continue this conversation. Stable Recovery, as a note, has graduated 32 now. Their school of horsemanship has seen 140 come through. Let me know what is on your mind about this topic. As always, thank you for watching and listening, and we'll see you next week.

[01:25:48] Thanks so much for joining me. I can't wait to see you back here next week. Please don't forget, follow, and subscribe to Things No One Tells You. And of course, if you're listening on Apple Podcast, don't forget to leave a five-star review because that's really what helps people get more. Listeners, we would love to grow this community.

[01:26:04] We are so grateful that you're a part of it. See you next time.

Lindsay Czarniak
Next

Turning a Hobby into a Business with Craig Melvin: Ep 27