The Science of Love with Marisa Cohen: Ep 33
Highlights from the episode:
How shared experiences strengthen romantic chemistry
How validation changes the tone of hard conversations
Why communication issues are often symptoms, not causes
What actually helps couples reconnect
Podcast show notes:
We love to talk about romantic love like it’s magic or fate. You either feel the spark or you don’t. But according to relationship science, attraction and long-term connection aren’t nearly as mysterious as we think.
In this episode, I sit down with Marisa T. Cohen, a relationship scientist and licensed marriage and family therapist, to explore what really drives romantic attraction, chemistry, and lasting connection. From why proximity matters, to how shared experiences and adrenaline can heighten attraction, Marisa breaks down the science behind love in a way that actually makes sense.
We also dive into one of the most common challenges couples face: communication. Marisa explains why so many disagreements escalate, what’s really happening beneath the surface, and how validation and timing can completely change the outcome of hard conversations.
What You’ll Discover:
What drives romantic attraction and chemistry (05:53)
Why shared experiences intensify connection (08:38)
How communication patterns quietly erode relationships (21:57)
Why validation matters more than being right (25:12)
Tools for repairing conflict and emotional safety (38:41)
Whether you’re dating, married, or trying to reconnect with your partner, this episode offers insight you can actually use, especially with Valentine’s Day around the corner. If this episode resonates, I hope you’ll subscribe, share it with someone you care about, and come back each week for more conversations like this one.
Connect with Marisa Cohen
Discover Marisa’s website: https://www.marisatcohen.com/
Follow Marisa on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marisatcohen/
Be sure to subscribe to Things No One Tells You—Lindsay’s podcast all about the real, unfiltered conversations we don’t always have but should. From big names to everyday voices, each episode dives into the moments that shape us. Listen wherever you get your podcasts!
Follow along with Lindsay below!
Full Transcript
[00:00:00] Marisa: This comes from relationship science. We get attracted to people when our physiological arousal level goes up. So basically, think like heart racing, sweaty palms. It's basically the reason why all of those reality shows are about love. Have people riding ATVs on the beach or going to like. some sort of amusement park, because it's increasing the physiological arousal.
[00:00:28] Because what's happening is the sensations of when you fall in love with a person are all of those sensations. Same thing as when you get on a roller coaster ride, in a TV w,atch a show about them. Are you kidding? No. No.
[00:00:45] Lindsay: Hey, guys. Welcome to Things No One Tells You, our latest TNOTY episode in the spirit of love around Valentine's Day.
[00:00:55] Imagine if you had a person at your disposal who could tell you about the science of love and maybe help describe why we feel the way we do, in different relationships. And maybe you're in a relationship where maybe you're married, maybe you're dating, maybe. Maybe you're divorced, maybe you're single, and you're out there on the market, whatever it is.
[00:01:21] I am so excited for you to hear from my guest today because this is going to help you frame, I think,k from here on out, when you meet someone, what you think about when it comes to attraction. And we oftentimes don't think about attraction because we just feel it, but I think it's really helpful. So my friend Marisa Cohen is a relationship scientist.
[00:01:41] I met Marisa because I was working on a project and we needed someone to talk about a relationship between two people. And when I sat in this room with Marisa and was asking her about, you know, what she could tell as an expert about this relationship, I was like. This woman, I wanted to literally put sandbags on her feet so she couldn't go anywhere.
[00:02:01] And I found myself within the first like 10 minutes asking her about a dilemma I was having with communication in my own life. And anyway, she is so fascinating. She's brilliant. What I love most about this conversation with Marisa is that she is very much in a world where she is. Called upon for her expertise in the area of love by companies. Also, obviously is a therapist.
[00:02:25] She's also a family and child therapist. She works with couples. She does all those things. But what I loved most was all of her. You know, advice is rooted in science. So it's talking to someone who's talking about different self-help tools, and everything that they have is backed up by legit stuff.
[00:02:46] There are also some surprises along the way. So without further ado, my friend Marisa Cohen. Marisa Cohen, it is so good to see you. So excited that you're here joining me because this, when we met, I was like, oh my gosh, you can solve so many of my problems, of everyone's problems. I just feel like the work that you do is so fascinating to me, and instantly, I was like, more people need to just be able to ask you questions.
[00:03:12] Do you get a lot of people in life that just ask you questions because they know what you do?
[00:03:17] Marisa: I feel like I've always gotten that quite honestly, which I think is like a blessing and a curse at times. But, just like traveling on public transportation, I am the person who is constantly engaged with the people next to me.
[00:03:29] So even before I went into the relationship space, I think I'm just a very curious person. So I'm always open to getting involved in those deep conversations.
[00:03:39] Lindsay: I love that. And so, okay, by title, you are a relationship expert. A scientist, really. And you are a marriage and family therapist, right? So.
[00:03:49] Marisa: Yes
[00:03:50] Lindsay: What is, and but you do so much because, as I shared in our intro here, a as you do, Ted talks about the science of relationships. You know, you are an expert whom people call on in this field. You're the therapist, as we mentioned. What. Like, what would you say, what is it that really lit you up about this work that has led you to what you're doing now?
[00:04:11] Because I have seen in the short time that I've known you,e this is very much a passion. That has become a purpose.
[00:04:17] Marisa: Oh, absolutely. I am very passionate about the field of relationship science, and basically, my goal is to take the scientific principles and distill them in a way that daters can understand.
[00:04:31] Couples, basically anyone that's in any type of relationship, romantic, familial, or just even a platonic friendship can use it to enhance their connection. So I wear many different hats. Some of them are academic. I teach about relationships, I speak about relationships, but also that clinical connection where I really work with couples to help them strengthen their bonds.
[00:04:55] Lindsay: So you're really digging into the real science behind it.
[00:05:00] Marisa: Yes.
[00:05:00] Lindsay: And like, and, okay, so that begs the question. What is the thing no one tells you about the science behind love?
[00:05:09] Marisa: Right. So there is a real science to it, and as magical and wonderful and exciting as love and romance and relationships are, there are scientific principles that we can essentially use to hack our love lives or improve our relationships.
[00:05:26] Lindsay: Okay, so what are they?
[00:05:29] Marisa: Gosh, where do I start?
[00:05:29] Lindsay: I know, and by the way, this is not, as you just said, this is not just in your dating life, in your marriage, in your family, but also in friendships. I mean that you did a whole talk on friendships and loneliness, which is a whole other, like an onion to peel the layers on that I would love to get to with you.
[00:05:50] But yeah, there's so much. So where would you begin?
[00:05:53] Marisa: Absolutely right. Like the field spans ac, it goes across the lifespan and it covers all different types of relationships. So when we're talking about the science of relationships, it's everything from forming your initial connection, like between a child and their caregiver, to principles of interpersonal attraction.
[00:06:12] So what makes people actually want to form relationships with one another? What leads to a successful and happy relationship, and what leads some relationships to fall apart, and how might we be able to fix them, in the face of grief and losing a loved one? So there are principles that are kind of interspersed into all different parts of relationships.
[00:06:36] Lindsay: So let's start with the love and like what have you learned about what makes us attracted to each other? What does that mean? That can be helpful.
[00:06:50] Marisa: Okay. So first, with the idea of attraction, I personally like to divide it into interpersonal attraction, or what makes us want to get to know another person on a deeper level.
[00:07:01] What draws me to you, and then you have the physical attraction piece, like what makes a person. Attracted to what to go out, like what creates that initial spark, essentially. So, as far as the interpersonal attraction piece, there are a bunch of different principles. One of them is just simply nearness and physical space, and I'm going to give you, like the SAT word of the day, which is propinquity.
[00:07:27] Lindsay: Wait.
[00:07:27] Marisa: And
[00:07:29] Lindsay: Propinquity.
[00:07:30] Marisa: Propinquity and propinquity means nearness in physical space. We like people who are close to us.
[00:07:38] Lindsay: How do you spell that word?
[00:07:40] Marisa: P-R-O-P-I-N. Can't do it without my fingers. Q-U-I-N-T-Y. Propinquity.
[00:07:48] Lindsay: So it means how close I am to you
[00:07:52] Marisa: Physically.
[00:07:53] Lindsay: Physically, when we're interacting.
[00:07:54] Marisa: Yes. So if you think, okay.
[00:07:56] Really good example of this.If you go back to school and think about maybe like high school, middle school, or high school, who were your closest friends or the people that you bonded with first? Probably the people in your homeroom. And if it were a school like mine, probably people who had similar last names because of alphabetical order, like those who we sat next to.
[00:08:20] Lindsay: Mine was like a neighborhood. That was like your classic neighborhood that was very close to a high school. I don't know how my group of friends and I became, maybe it was sports or living on the same street.
[00:08:35] Marisa: Right. So
[00:08:35] Lindsay: Living on, just living on the same street. So
[00:08:37] Marisa: It's, yes, living on the same street.
[00:08:38] There's actually a really famous study that was done in 1950 by Leon Festinger, who is a very famous psychologist. And he did a study at MIT, and the goal of the study was basically to figure out what made people happy in their housing. And what he found is that he looked at these different buildings that were specifically for graduate students.
[00:09:01] Married graduate students who came back post World War II to go to school, and he looked at the different buildings, and he asked people, who are your closest friends? And how many friends do you perceive that you have overall? Now, the interesting thing is with propinquity. People basically said their closest friends were those who were next door to them.
[00:09:22] So you just like naturally became closer to the people that lived physically closest to you. The other thing he found, which was actually another principle of interpersonal attraction, is that the people who had the closest, who had the most friends, were those who lived near the mailboxes, the apartments by the mailboxes, and the apartments by the stairwell.
[00:09:44] And the reason for that was that when they would come in and out of their apartment, people were constantly passing by them. So they would start conversations with them and get to like build this momentum where it goes from acquaintance to friendship, to close friendship over time.
[00:10:05] Lindsay: What do you even do with that?
[00:10:06] That's so interesting. But it's so common sense.
[00:10:09] Marisa: So that's known as a mere exposure effect. So the more we're exposed to something, the more we start to like it. So if you are interested in someone, just being close to them in their physical space, of course, with consent, can lead to that initial attraction to them.
[00:10:29] Lindsay: Okay. That's so, so. From that. Where do you go? Like what, how do you apply that? Because you have worked in many different fields, like what, do you do with that information
[00:10:43] Marisa: That's like, okay, so good example, friendships. As you're starting to build a friendship, you need that exposure. You need to build that momentum.
[00:10:53] So if you're, it's especially challenging to make new friends as an adult. 'cause we aren't in, we're not going through many life transitions where we're exposed to new groups of people. Yeah. So if you meet someone and you hit it off and you're interested in forming a connection with them, you really need to make sure that you're seeing them at a regular cadence.
[00:11:11] So you have that exposure. You could build on something over time. So that's when setting up like regular friend dates, coffees, dinners, whatever it is, important to go from being a casual acquaintance to creating that deeper friendship.
[00:11:25] Lindsay: I know because you did a big study on that, where you like basically had an experiment with it.
[00:11:30] Okay. So what have you found is like the minimum amount of time that you could do that, where, you know, because people are busy, and especially when you're talking about that span where you're wanting friends because you're now maybe you're in a new environment, whatever it is, but you're busy, you've got a family maybe.
[00:11:48] So what's like the least amount of time that you have scientifically seen work? How often are we talking?
[00:11:54] Marisa: Good question. I wish I could see a friend five times. Then you've got a friend for life. It's not quite that simple because it really depends. There are so many individual differences among people.
[00:12:05] You need to not only see a person over time, but you need to have that vulnerability. Basically, you people are letting your guard down so you can become emotionally intimate with the other person. Feel truly seen, truly heard, and truly understood. So some people, and this also is the same thing in romantic relationships, you can go out and see one another for three or four months and feel like I don't really know anything about that person in other relationships.
[00:12:33] By your second date, you feel like you know their whole inner world. So I think for people who are trying to deepen a relationship or create a true friendship or a romantic relationship, it's keeping in constant contact in a way that works for both people. So you've had that cadence, and you feel like you're learning a little bit more about their inner world each time.
[00:12:56] Lindsay: So when we, you and I were talking off, before we hopped on here and we were both talking about how we are avid viewers of the pit, and I really think that there is sort of this universal like appreciation, but also if we're being honest, like attraction appeal that comes along with the lead doctor, right?
[00:13:16] Rabinovich. Mm-hmm. Why is that? Do you have anything that you like? Is that a weird question?
[00:13:24] Marisa: No. No. And, my biggest crush right now, you know, former Dr. Carter, now, Dr. Robbie, Noah Wyle. So I think that there's. There are actually some principles of relationship science that can kind of explain what our attraction is.
[00:13:41] and just also some principles from Psychology One, the simplest one from psychology, the idea of a parasocial relationship, where we form connections to the people that we're watching over time. So we really feel like the people that we see on screen, we have some sort of pseudo relationship with them, but more than that, and this comes from relationship science.
[00:14:04] We get attracted to people when our physiological arousal level goes up. So basically, think like heart racing, sweaty palms, and it's basically the reason why all of those reality shows are about love. Have people riding ATVs on the beach or going to like, some sort of amusement park because it's increasing the physiological arousal, because what's happening is.
[00:14:32] The sensations of when you fall in love with a person are all of those sensations. Your breath is shallower and quicker, and your heart is racing, and you're excited. Same thing as when you get on a rollercoaster ride in a TV. Watch, a show about the ER.
[00:14:49] Lindsay: Are you kidding?!
[00:14:50] Marisa: No, so people are watching the show, and if you're anything like me, you're kind of watching it like this.
[00:14:56] 'cause I don't really love all the gory stuff. No, you're talking about the game. You love the show.
[00:15:00] Lindsay: Yes.
[00:15:00] Marisa: Yeah. So I'm watching it. My heart's racing, and my brain is interpreting it as if I'm attracted to him. I'm attracted to him also. He's just perfect.
[00:15:14] Lindsay: Okay. Hold on. Yes, but so you're saying.
[00:15:19] But the funny thing is, if we're really breaking this down, like good looking. Absolutely. Like, I mean, but in another scenario on the street, yes, but not like, oh my gosh, there goes Matthew McConaughey. Do you know what? Right. Or no?
[00:15:36] Marisa: I mean, everyone teach their own.
[00:15:37] Lindsay: Oh, I know it's now this is, I don't even know.
[00:15:41] I just, now my, okay, wait, hold on. So what you're saying, though, is that it's like. Those dating shows that analogy you used. So you're meaning not only us watching, but you are also saying the
[00:15:53] Marisa: people in the experience
[00:15:55] Lindsay: Also, us too. But them in the experience?
[00:15:58] Marisa: Yes. That's crazy.
[00:16:00] Lindsay: So that's, so then why doesn't everybody go to an amusement park if they want?
[00:16:03] Marisa: They should. That's a take-home message right there. What is that like for your first date? You should be like getting on a bike and like biking out in nature. Oh my god. Or going on a rollercoaster. So they've actually done studies, and you don't actually need to even be in the situation. You can be just approaching the situation.
[00:16:20] So people, they've done studies with married couples, okay. Doing yoga, married couples, doing cardio, married couples, doing cardio report, greater attraction to one another. They've done people who are waiting in line to get on a rollercoaster who are on an early date. People who are anticipating their heart rate rising.
[00:16:44] We know what greater attraction.
[00:16:46] Lindsay: When you said that, I actually started to get really excited because I love a roller coaster roller and I felt my body like I felt right,
[00:16:54] Marisa: Like
[00:16:55] Lindsay: Excitement, so.
[00:16:57] Marisa: You started talking about Kit.
[00:16:58] Lindsay: I know, I’m nodding all over myself. This is just like really this, but whole, wait, so Melvin and I just started doing Pilates together.
[00:17:05] Does would Pilates fall in the middle range? Like it's not yoga, it's not cardio. It's probably, no,
[00:17:11] Marisa: I mean, you're definitely gonna be more attracted during that class if you were just meditating. But as I would, up it probably like, you know, Pilates and then get on a rollercoaster together. Perfect date,
[00:17:24] Lindsay: But that's so, okay.
[00:17:26] Okay, so that is really interesting. Did people know that? Does everybody know that? Do you think
[00:17:32] Marisa: I mean, I'm just trying to spread the word, but if you think about how people actually date, it's usually, and not that I'm knocking, like, you know, dinner and having a conversation 'cause that's how you really get to know another person.
[00:17:45] Yes. But doing an activity is wonderful, not only because of physiological arousal, but you get to share something you like with another individual, which I think is great.
[00:17:55] Lindsay: So what's interesting about that to me, too, is the fact that I have heard from therapists, if you're going to have a conversation that you need to have with your husband or significant other, don't sit across a table from him.
[00:18:10] Take him on a walk, don't look at him. And because there's something about when you're sitting face to face that just feels like a little bit, there is room for just. Weird feelings because of confrontation, and you're staring face-to-face and there's kind of nowhere to go, right?
[00:18:29] Marisa: Absolutely.
[00:18:30] Absolutely. And I think everyone's different. Some people may thrive in that type of environment, so I think it's really important to understand what works for you and what works well for your partner. But I think that there's something beautiful about, like, going for a walk because it's also like you're doing this thing to.
[00:18:48] Together. Like you're in this, like you're, it's forward motion. Like, there's like a nice metaphor to that as well. But beyond that, it can be very disarming to, you know, look another person in the eyes. It also depends on what kind of information you're sharing, too, whereas sometimes, like having that ability to not stare face to face, makes you feel a little bit less vulnerable and more comfortable opening up.
[00:19:12] Lindsay: And it probably also depends on the type of human you are. Because, like, even if you're, say, you're at a dinner party and if you're just having a one-on-one conversation with someone. Sometimes that can just be, I don't know. Like, sometimes I find myself thinking about what I'm doing with my face.
[00:19:29] You know what I mean? Right. I know that sounds so weird. But
[00:19:32] Marisa: No, I'm right there with you, and now I'm like super hyper aware of my face. Right?
[00:19:36] Lindsay: Noo. But we're side by side. We're good. But no, I just think what's interesting also about that, so people did send in some questions for our conversation, and one of the questions was.
[00:19:46] Asking me to share the relationship story of how I met my husband. And now hearing you explain that part of it, which I have never thought about, like all the action things that they have going on, those dating shows. I just figured it was because they're fun things to watch.
[00:20:01] Marisa: I mean, that may be the justification, and that may be what people are like, like, you know, going to, but there is really a science behind it.
[00:20:07] It's serving a dual purpose that you're leading with.
[00:20:10] Lindsay: Yeah. And so we met on the TV set at our station, where we were doing the local news. I was doing sports, he was doing news, and we met in a commercial break. So the irony there is I had just come back from doing the Olympics. I did not know he was hired.
[00:20:29] He was a new guy at our station. I had been there for a few years. And so when I sat down. It was the moment before, literally like my first night back, the red light goes on. And in that setting, you are feeling adrenaline because you're just always, you know, you're about to be live on air. There's an excitement and nervousness that always kind of goes along with that adrenaline.
[00:20:50] And so it's funny because. Right. That literally was when I met him, like for the first time, kind of talked to him for a second before that happened. So it is always.
[00:21:00] Marisa: Oh my gosh, I love that connection.
[00:21:02] Lindsay: But so it's like height, you know, like I,
[00:21:05] Marisa: Tt heightens, things, and I want people to remember.
[00:21:07] It's not like, you know, Hey, go out with a run. Go on a run with someone, and you're gonna instantly fall in love. It doesn't quite work that way. I mean, there was clearly like an initial. Spark that the two of you had through which a relationship develops. But for you, when you have that physiological arousal, it heightens everything.
[00:21:25] Na like naturally.
[00:21:26] Lindsay: It's fascinating. I mean, and we had a couple different versions of our relationship. So, like it wasn't, it wasn't perfect from the start, but it was. That is so true. So I love all that background on like, on the environment and what leads to it, but okay, so then you're in it.
[00:21:42] So for people that are in relationships, what have you seen in your research or in your experience working with people about Keys to. Being in a healthy relationship, ways to be better, what should we be doing, you know?
[00:21:57] Marisa: Yeah. So a lot of couples will come to therapy talking about communication as being the leading issue.
[00:22:04] Now, I'm an attachment-based therapist and researcher, so I often say that communication is kind of a symptom of maybe something else going on. Perhaps couples are drifting apart over time, but working on communication is something that can not only be repaired. A lot of the damage that may be happening in a relationship can, in fact, strengthen relationships.
[00:22:27] So thinking about how we speak to our loved ones, really, great work out of the Gottman Institute by Dr. John Gottman. He focuses on something known as the four Horsemen, which are contempt, criticism, defensiveness, and stonewalling. Contempt is like the worst of all of them, but basically the worst.
[00:22:49] Often, you employ these tactics. When you get into disagreements with partners, the more likely that this is going to lead to disaster within the relationship.
[00:23:00] Lindsay: Okay, so where do we start?
[00:23:03] Marisa: Okay. Okay, so lemme break down. So criticism is basically calling your partner out for something. So if you were to just say, like, you're such a slob, like let's say they let a mess in the bathroom in the morning, like just like towels lying around or something like that.
[00:23:19] You just say, you're such a slob now. It's very. Easy, of course, to do that because you're frustrated. Maybe you're running late in the morning, and you just wanna say something and make a point. But if we can actually shift that into something known as eye language, where you're focusing on the problematic behavior and how it makes you feel, rather than just lashing out at your partner, that shifts things dramatically.
[00:23:42] So rather than saying you're such a slob, you might say something like, you know,w when towels are left on the floor? I get upset because I'm already running late in the morning,g and now I have to start cleaning up the bathroom as well.
[00:23:56] Lindsay: So basically it's like, it's an what my mom used to call an iMessage.
[00:23:59] Yes. Like, how are you feeling? Okay. Is there a moment that is best to bring that to the forefront? Meaning, if it's really irking you, whatever the thing is, should you bring it up then and address it? Or is it, is there a right or wrong time to bring that up?
[00:24:18] Marisa: Great question. if. Both people are just stressed, running around, or not fully present.
[00:24:27] Like, if you know your partner's halfway out the door, or you're trying to have a serious conversation, probably not the best time to do it. The best time to engage in any conversation, positive or negative, you know, room for improvement, is when both people can be actively engaged in that conversation.
[00:24:43] So I would come from a place of calm to approach any sort of. Conversation about how you're feeling related to one of their behaviors.
[00:24:54] Lindsay: So. Someone wrote, how do you communicate with your husband if whenever there's a disagreement, like there is one thing that you're not seeing eye to eye on, and you wanna talk about it,t every time they're talking about it, it turns into a fight.
[00:25:10] Marisa: Oh my gosh.
[00:25:11] Lindsay: But everyone kind of deals with that.
[00:25:12] Marisa: Yeah. Yeah, so the important thing to bring up there is that it is so, so important for partners to be able to validate one another. And when I say validation, that means acknowledging another person's perspective. When I bring this up in the therapeutic setting, sometimes people are like, no.
[00:25:32] Like I can't, they're wrong because this, that, and the other thing. That's also getting defensive, another one of those horsemen. But it doesn't mean that you need to see eye to eye. It doesn't mean that you need to agree with one another because we're not always gonna agree. We're different people, different views.
[00:25:47] Come from, you know, different families. So there's inevitably going to be certain things that we just simply don't see eye to eye on. That is okay, but we need to be able to validate or acknowledge our partner's perspective. So what I usually tell couples that find themselves in this situation is that you need to slow down the conversation.
[00:26:08] Each person needs to be able to express their perspective fully. Not talking about the other person, you don't wanna focus on you. It's, I feel this way because focus on whatever the behavior is, get your entire perspective out while the other person is sitting back and. Actively listening, which is very challenging because usually people are building up in their mind the case that they have.
[00:26:41] Lindsay: Yes.
[00:26:41] Marisa: To receive everything.
[00:26:44] Lindsay: Have you thought of creating a workbook that we can all follow? That literally is a worksheet. Honestly, I'm telling you,
[00:26:54] Marisa: I listen.
[00:26:56] Lindsay: I really think, I mean, if you would create a worksheet for our listeners slash viewers, I would love anyone who is listening and watching this to.
[00:27:06] Let us know, DM me, whatever. If you would use a worksheet, because I'm gonna be just really honest. I hate conflict. And I know it sounds dumb to say because I know no one enjoys it, but some people feel more comfortable speaking their piece than others. I don't. And I'm one of those people who kind of shuts down.
[00:27:27] I am that person you just described who's like, no, right, right. So I will. Wrap myself up in knots about whatever it is that I really want to go a certain way because I create this narrative that I think is gonna actually be the outcome. And then I like to avoid, and then it is partially my fault because I have always thought that, like, it would be so easy to just map out what the conversation, but I, as you're saying this, it's like.
[00:27:58] That is such great advice. If you're like, okay, you're going into a situation, you're, it's my thing I wanna bring to the table. I am going to share how I feel, but then I'm going to shut my mouth and let him or my significant other, whoever that is, right. Reply and share the way that they're feeling as well.
[00:28:15] Marisa: And then, right. So you basically, not you, but the person that's like actively listening, they're just sitting there and really trying to take everything, which is hard because a lot of people wanna verbally spar with their partner, and they're building up the case like, how can I refute that? How can I refute that?
[00:28:31] And then it's like letting them outta the gates and like, no, you become like lawyers in a trial, and that's not the situation you want. So once your partner expresses themselves, what I always think is helpful is to paraphrase what they were saying without any of your interpretation, but you're basically just paraphrasing to make sure, did I understand you correctly?
[00:28:50] Because a lot of where the arguments happen is in the misinterpretation. I think that you mean this, but it's not; I actually didn't mean that. People take their own message away and get angry when, if you were just able to like go back to the person and say, did I understand what you were trying to say?
[00:29:07] They can then clarify any misinterpretations or misunderstandings that you have, and then the communication between the two of you becomes a lot clearer. But to your point about wanting to shut. Off and like not necessarily be involved in, you know, yeah, confrontation. That so resonates with me.
[00:29:27] And a lot of times, because people feel uncomfortable in those situations, they will play out what could otherwise be just normal conversations and in their head, build it up, I don't know, tell things resonate. And then something that could just be an easy conversation in your mind plays out like this, really big blowout fight.
[00:29:46] So because of that, you just avoid it entirely. When it could have been something that was just so easy to discuss with a person, and like you are punishing yourself in that case
[00:29:58] Lindsay: Exactly what it is. Right. And especially 'cause, you know, sometimes then it's like you're trying, not, you don't want to do this, but you are sort of creating what their response is going to be.
[00:30:08] Yes. And you very well may not be that which is unfair to do to yourself, but frankly, it's also unfair to do to the other person. Right. Because you're right. Yes,
[00:30:18] Marisa: I can a hundred percent this. So like, yes, this resonates with me. I am guilty of sometimes creating entire scripts for groups of people in my own mind, and I'm like, if I say this and it's all of those what ifs, and you're playing it out, it creates more anxiety for you.
[00:30:33] It, in turn, can affect how you relate to another person because even though it didn't really happen. The emotions are now stirred up, and you feel that way, and avoiding a conversation isn't going to get anyone anywhere because you're never dealing with that underlying issue. And as difficult as it may be to engage in conversation, especially around a hot topic issue, it's so important to be able to navigate that.
[00:30:58] Lindsay: And what do you do if there's sort of an impasse? I've always wondered that. Right? But like if you're, if there is. If there's a thing, and if there's just not an agreement on it. You have to; something's gotta give. Right,
[00:31:14] Marisa: Right, right.
[00:31:15] Lindsay: What do you see with that kind of thing?
[00:31:17] Marisa: Right. A lot of people talk about it in terms of compromise, which is when both people are kind of giving something up.
[00:31:22] I don't necessarily love that 'cause it implies we're both kind of abandoning our perspectives and maybe giving up things. I like to think of it in terms of collaboration. Collaboration in terms of, oh my gosh. Coming up with a path forward, a potential solution. So, what is a new avenue that we can take that we may not have thought about before?
[00:31:46] And like, let's just get creative, like let's abandon our positions just for a moment, put 'em to the side and think about how we might approach whatever that issue is with a fresh set of eyes.
[00:31:58] Lindsay: Love it.
[00:31:59] Marisa: Not easy to do all of these things. I just wanna acknowledge like these people who might be listening or watching or like who we've tried that, and we like it, is very difficult.
[00:32:10] It is not going to necessarily be like, okay, I'm gonna just change this, and now our relationship is gonna be perfect. But I think that if you can slowly start to shift in a little bit of a positive direction. It's leading to growth over time, which is actually more likely to be sustainable and improve your overall relationship with your partner.
[00:32:30] Lindsay: And to that end, so there was another question about how to ignite the intimacy if things have maybe gotten a little stale? Right. So, I think that's a great question.
[00:32:43] Marisa: I think that is such an important,
[00:32:45] Lindsay: Maybe I don't know this, obviously it's hugely personal for a lot of people, right? But.
[00:32:50] Marisa: I think that's a really great question.
[00:32:52] Now I just kind of wanna, you know, from relationship science in the beginning of a relationship, that's when passion is like at an all-time high. It's when we go through the honeymoon phase of a relationship, it's something known as limerence. And limerence is like when you get the butterflies, when you start thinking about the,
[00:33:12] Lindsay: How do you spell that word?
[00:33:13] Marisa: You know, L-I-M-E-R. E-N-C-E. I think. I love this.
[00:33:18] Lindsay: This is so educational. Okay, keep going.
[00:33:21] Marisa: I should have really checked spelling on these things. No, you're fine. RINs. Yeah, I think, yeah, so it's, like, when we're like, they've actually looked at brainwaves of individuals early on in a relationship, and they show similar patterns to people who have OCD.
[00:33:36] So you really are thinking about that person all the time in the early parts of the relationship. It's when the frequency of sex is often at an all-time high, and a lot of people, as we settle into a relationship, the passion starts to kind of fade. Dip a little and then level off. But the really amazing thing is that we're building something known as companionate love or friendship beneath it.
[00:34:00] That's you, but no kidding.
[00:34:03] Lindsay: I'm kidding. I know.
[00:34:06] Marisa: No, I'm totally joking.
[00:34:07] Lindsay: I'm, I love my friendship and,
[00:34:09] Marisa: But that makes sense, though. That makes sense. That reaction makes sense. And I've been there, I'm like, come on. But you, like, you're, that's the glue that holds a relationship together over time. That doesn't mean that passion should just drop out.
[00:34:23] Right. And I think like that for a lot of people become super, super disarming. But I'm sharing this because I just wanna normalize.
[00:34:31] Lindsay: Yes.
[00:34:31] Marisa: We don't necessarily wanna be chasing. That initial-like-new relationship energy is high, we can certainly bring back passion as we should, because I think that we should have, yeah, you know, a healthy intimacy between partners, but I don't want people to think or get scared where it's just like, it doesn't feel like that new relationship energy anymore. So when you start to feel it die down. Whatever that is. I think it's really important, and this is gonna be so uncomfortable for a lot of people.
[00:34:58] You need to acknowledge it and maybe engage in conversation with your partner about it, because sometimes when it's like it lives in your own head, it gets bigger and scarier, and open communication is one of the cornerstones to a healthy partnership.
[00:35:11] Lindsay: Okay?
[00:35:12] Marisa: Acknowledge it, talk about it, figure out what you wanna do with it, because.
[00:35:17] Is it just physical intimacy that's dipping, or is there something behind it? Is there like something that's not making you feel safe and secure in the relationship that needs to be addressed first? Or is it simply just doing something to bring back the spark and having something like a date night or talking about, you know, things that you wanna try in the bedroom or whatever it is.
[00:35:41] Right, right. Like you need to figure out where up.
[00:35:44] yeah, exactly. Where does it lie?
[00:35:46] Lindsay: Right. Also, a fantastic worksheet, the conversation I wanna talk about. Right? no. Okay. Well, so, and, to that point about talking about it, for people that are like, okay, we've acknowledged it, are there tips from your area of expertise that you have found that are like, I don't wanna use the word, like quick fix, but like, you know what I mean, for like.
[00:36:15] Getting back at it. I don't know.
[00:36:17] Marisa: Yeah. So I feel like it's really difficult if we're talking specifically about like sex or like, right, right. That is such a difficult conversation for so many people because it is vulnerable, and there's kind of that fear of like, there's this thing that I wanna bring up.
[00:36:32] I don't know how it's gonna go across. I tell people that as long as you can communicate with your. Partner, that's important. And if you can't do it in the beginning, face-to-face, staring in one another's eyes, which could feel really vulnerable, write a note to one another. You can do any sort of thing, like that's totally fine.
[00:36:50] If you feel more comfortable putting it on paper, put it on paper.
[00:36:56] Lindsay: That's fascinating. Okay, so this is another question that, okay. That someone sent in, which is, what percentages of marriages survive an affair? That's hard.
[00:37:10] Marisa: Yeah. I don't have a good number, and I'm gonna tell you why. Because a lot of the statistics that are even out there are actually false.
[00:37:18] And I'm sure you've probably heard that statistic of like half of all marriages end in divorce. That's not true. It's actually not 50%. The number is probably more likely in the high thirties. Not that I'm like, that's great, but it's not quite 50. We don't do a good job of We don't have a good repository of information, so we, we don't really like it.
[00:37:40] No. What I will say is, I work with couples in all different phases of relationships. I have worked with many couples who have experienced infidelity in their relationship. Mm-hmm. And it's absolutely possible. To work through it and to have a strong and healthy relationship after, if it is something that the partners want to do.
[00:38:05] And it does take a lot of work, a lot of energy and time, and it incorporates things like acknowledging the affair and trust does need to be built back up. So it is not something that you can get through quickly, but it is absolutely something that people can work through.
[00:38:24] Lindsay: That's really helpful information that I'm sure a lot of folks, you know, will find helpful for someone to hear.
[00:38:30] Okay. You mentioned the four horsemen, and I would love for you to just, you also have some stats. I know that Yeah. Come into play with some of them. Can you enlighten us with that? 'cause I think it's really relevant.
[00:38:41] Marisa: Yeah. So all this research was done by John Gottman and the Gottman Institute, but you have the criticism, which is attacking a partner's character.
[00:38:50] and the antidote to that is really focusing on the behavior and using your eye language. You have contempt, which is criticism, but coming from a place of superiority. So this is there's that fine line between sarcasm and just being plain mean. This is when you cross over into mean. It's kind of like you figure out what your partner's Achilles heel is and then just go for it during an argument.
[00:39:13] Yeah. Yeah. The antidote to that is, remember, you are on the same team. Creating this culture of respect for one another is so important. We have defensiveness, which is when a person refuses to take ownership of anything that they've done wrong, and when you come at them. So the example I gave before, you know, oh, you're such a slaw because you left your towels all over the bathroom.
[00:39:38] Well, have you seen what you've done in the kitchen? You've left all your, you know, dishes in this thing.
[00:39:43] Lindsay: Yeah,
[00:39:43] Marisa: That's never; that's like a tit for tat strategy. People are kind of like stacking up all the issues, and there are no winners there. If you do something wrong, own it. Own it, because then hopefully your partner will do the same in the future.
[00:39:58] The last one is stonewalling. And stonewalling is when a person just gets so overwhelmed during a heated discussion that they shut down. And often what happens is the other person who sees their partner shut down, they perceive it as they're just not interested or engaged in the conversation, and it's nothing personal, but they're just like so overcome that this is like a protective type of thing.
[00:40:22] So they're just not capable of being present in that moment. Antidote. Take a break, and I know there are a lot of people who are probably listening to this, and they're just like, no, when I'm upset with my partner, I wanna hash it out and get through it. The best thing that you can do is take a break, get that excitement level or that anger level down so that you can approach it from a calmer place and really have a constructive conversation at a later time.
[00:40:48] Lindsay: So you're getting off the rollercoaster at that point.
[00:40:51] Marisa: Yes.
[00:40:51] Lindsay: Walking away.
[00:40:53] Marisa: Exactly. So if you are fighting on a rollercoaster, if you're getting into an argument while on a rollercoaster, that is like the worst of all worlds, but you know, all of these things like criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling, this is what leads to relationships kind of breaking down over time.
[00:41:13] And some really interesting stats that I think are powerful to hear are that relationships that. Winds up going into either if you're married towards divorce or towards breaking up if you're in, you know, just dating. Those are when the negative starts to become, like the negative interactions are a little bit more than the positive relationships that are just simply stable. Just to have a stable relationship.
[00:41:40] Lindsay: Yeah.
[00:41:40] Marisa: For every one negative. And that can be like an interaction. You need five positives just to cancel that one negative in a stable relationship. What, so if you say something like, you're such an alum now, you need five positive interactions just to. Erase that.
[00:42:02] Don't erase it, 'cause we don't forget it. But to kind of come back to this, like that's how much more positive you need to tip the scale because that one negative thing really lasts, and that can really harm the relationship in happy relationships. Positive to negative, you need 10 to one or sometimes even 20 to one in really satisfying relationships.
[00:42:21] Lindsay: Wow. So maybe we should, on our own, be looking to have those positive moments. Should we be thinking proactively?
[00:42:31] Marisa: Absolutely. Absolutely. Things like expressing gratitude for one another. Acknowledging, not just pointing out, what a person is doing wrong or falling short on, but engaging in conversation about it.
[00:42:45] Why is your partner such a great partner, or like how special they made you feel today? We sometimes take all of those things for granted. Shifting it to focus on the positive can do wonders for your relationship.
[00:42:57] Lindsay: That's really, I feel like that is a thing, and maybe I'm alone in this, but that you just sometimes don't think about, you know, like I, no, like I could definitely do a better job in that category, like just for no reason being like.
[00:43:11] You know that. Thank you. Yeah.
[00:43:14] Marisa: Yeah.
[00:43:15] Lindsay: Very helpful. So, for people that are experiencing some of those, what do you call them? Like those pillars, right? If they're just present in your relationship. What would you suggest are, is an easy action item to help just eliminate that, whether it's the stonewalling, whether it's the, you know, what did you say?
[00:43:38] The one where someone's using defensiveness like that. The tip for the ip.
[00:43:43] Marisa: Right? Right.
[00:43:43] Lindsay: What can you do?
[00:43:45] Marisa: I think what's really helpful, quite honestly, is having some sort of relationship check-in. And I know when I say this, for a lot of people, they're just oh, like homework What? Like, what does this look like?
[00:43:53] And a relationship check-in can be anything that you and your partner want it to be. But the key here is that in regular intervals, you were doing something, just like pausing on the rest. And I know we all have a lot of things that are going on, so this can even be like. 20 minutes transitioning between different activities or different errands that you need to run, but it's something that the two of you are doing to just acknowledge the work that you're both putting into the relationship. Express gratitude towards one another, and if there's anything that's on your mind, this is a time to acknowledge it in a constructive way. You don't want this to be like the hour that you sit down and like. Air your grievances.
[00:44:35] Yeah. But this is the opportunity that you have to just say, you know what, I don't think that we have been prioritizing one another as much recently. I, we need to, you know, spend more time having conversations without just, you know, being focused on the kids or whatever it is. That's when you can bring it up with potential solutions.
[00:44:55] Lindsay: I love that. Okay, let's move on to dating for those who are not yet married. I mean, I'm sorry if we've ostracized you, but those are helpful tips, too, for anybody who's dating, frankly.
[00:45:05] Marisa: Oh my gosh, absolutely. This is, these are helpful interpersonal skills for any type of relationship. Yes. Like I iff you find out that you were using contempt, defensiveness, or stonewalling with family members, friends, cut it out right now.
[00:45:19] Lindsay: So dating, you know, you did a whole TED Talk and really did this fascinating breakdown on like percentages and basically like a dating app, like breaking it down. yeah. You have so much expertise in that area. Yeah. What are you seeing that are trends that you think are interesting for people to know?
[00:45:38] And I love how you shared the concept of dating a relative, because my girlfriend sometimes talks about our friends that we have who are couples, and we're like, they absolutely look like brother and sister.
[00:45:50] Marisa: Oh my gosh. Yeah.
[00:45:51] Lindsay: Right. And you said there's actually a science behind that.
[00:45:54] Marisa: Oh, absolutely. I mean, there was a study that was done where this was, now we're talking about attraction, but physical attraction, they had, they presented pictures to. Participants of this study and what they actually did in certain pictures, although the participants didn't know this, morphed their parents' photo in with the random photo that they showed them, and people rated those photos as more attractive.
[00:46:22] So basically, what's going on here is like, there's something kind of good-looking about that person. I can't quite put my finger on it. That's the biology. We like people who look like us. We don't necessarily want to admit, like, I find myself so attractive, but we like people who look like us.
[00:46:41] Lindsay: Why is it familiarity?
[00:46:43] Marisa: Is it right? It's familiarity. It's, but so what's interesting is also in that study is that they then showed pictures to people, and they said Certain pictures are morphed with your own face. They weren't, but when people were told that the picture was morphed with their own face, they rated them as less attractive.
[00:47:04] So even though we are drawn to people who look like us, we don't wanna see, seem super vain about it.
[00:47:11] Lindsay: That's so strange, right?
[00:47:13] Marisa: Yeah.
[00:47:13] Lindsay: Isn't that,
[00:47:14] Marisa: Yeah. And then I once, I brought that up to someone recently, and then they just said, is that why, like, so many people look like they're pets? Which I was very fascinated by.
[00:47:23] And I was like, kind of like going on this deep dive, and I don't know if it's just like we're drawn to certain personalities of pets. I don't know.
[00:47:32] Lindsay: So funny, the dating advice from someone who is out there, studies the research, does the things, what are you seeing?
[00:47:41] Marisa: So I'm seeing a lot of people who are extremely frustrated with dating today, feeling fatigued, especially when people are going on dating apps and they start, they perceive that there's just so much choice.
[00:47:55] Ah, that's actually known as the paradox of choice. The more choices there are, the more difficult it is to make a decision. So they find themselves scrolling through profile after profile. And you know, I always just tell people that it's important to think about what it is that you want. Like pause before even like entering the dating space.
[00:48:16] Think about. What are your non-negotiables? Why are they your non-negotiables? Are they really your non-negotiables,s or is it things that you're finding out on social media that you're absorbing? Like, think about what this really means for you? It's totally fine to have non-negotiables.
[00:48:31] Think about what you're looking for in a potential partner. What values are important to you, and then as you start to meet people, it's not necessarily going to be the first date that you go on, it would be. What would be wonderful is if all of a sudden you hit it off, and that becomes the relationship. But it's important to like reframe the way you think about it.
[00:48:51] I've found that a lot of people struggle when they put their all, and sometimes when you meet a person in person, it doesn't quite click, and then because of that, they just get so upset, which. Understandably, and then they wanna just disengage with the process of meeting other people.
[00:49:09] If you think about it as basically just getting to know another person and learn about them, and just as a process, then I think you're going to be able to enjoy the journey a little bit more and you're, when you're not putting so much pressure on yourself.
[00:49:25] Lindsay: Fascinating. Marisa, next time, we're gonna talk about the relationship, the things no one tells you about friendships when you're an adult and creating them, because that's a whole other just treasure trove of information that I know you have. Is there anything else that you want to add before we say goodbye?
[00:49:49] Marisa: Well, we covered a lot of ground today. I, so I think that it's important, just, you know, putting it out there again, that remember the interactions that we have with our partners matter, and not just our partners, our friends, our family members.
[00:50:03] Focus on gratitude. Focus on acknowledging the people in your life for what they are adding to it, 'cause that shifts the entire relationship to a more positive space. And, go on rollercoasters with everyone you love.
[00:50:18] Lindsay: And how often should we be going on date nights?
[00:50:21] Marisa: You know what, as often as you can, but it's important to not only just do date nights, but focus on all of the enriching and fulfilling relationships in your life to devote time to family and friends as well.
[00:50:36] Lindsay: I really feel like that's something too, that. The sooner we learn that, the better our lives, the richer and fuller our lives will be. And I speak from the perspective of a person, as I know you are, who's very, you know, career driven. And I, it's very easy to let that part just go by the wayside, whether you're, you know, on the younger side and you're coming up in whatever it is that you're trying to accomplish, or if you're even more seasoned, it's like sometimes that's the first thing to go.
[00:51:05] But I really, the more. The time I spend on this Earth. It's like you realize how that is just as important. Those connections, you know,
[00:51:14] Marisa: Absolutely feed all of the important connections in your life.
[00:51:18] Lindsay: Okay, so next time we talk to you, hopefully you'll be telling us about this workbook because I think you can help a lot of people, but no.
[00:51:27] Marisa: Thank you.
[00:51:28] Lindsay: You're the best. Thank you so much for joining me, and yeah, I really appreciate it,t and I can't wait to talk. Thank you soon, Marisa. I love that conversation with Marisa, and I will never look at reality. Dating shows the same again. Anyway, so much useful information there.
[00:51:45] If you're interested in finding out more that Marisa has to share, you can find links to some of her work and other things in our show notes. You can find that on my website, lindsaycz.com. And of course, if there was something that really struck you from our conversation that you wanted to explore more or that you feel like is maybe beneficial for someone that you may know who's going through a similar thing, please share this episode with a friend.
[00:52:10] But as always, thank you so much for tuning in and for listening to things no one tells you. We can't wait to see you next time. Thanks so much for joining me. I can't wait to see you back here next week. Please don't forget, follow, and subscribe to Things No One Tells You. And of course, if you're listening on Apple Podcasts, don't forget to leave a five-star review because that's really what helps people get more.
[00:52:31] Listeners, we would love to grow this community. We are so grateful that you're a part of it. See you next time.
