Being the First Female Coach in the NFL with Jen Welter: Ep 11
Highlights from the episode:
The bold decision to cold call the Arizona Cardinals
What it felt like to walk into an NFL locker room with no blueprint
Why being the first means showing up without a playbook
Why Jen still sees herself as a work in progress
Podcast show notes:
I’ve told a lot of stories over the years, but watching Jen Welter tear up while reading a handwritten note from one of her linebackers? That one stuck with me.
Jen was the first woman to coach in the NFL, but what makes her story unforgettable isn’t just that milestone. It’s what it took to get there. No guidebook. No road map. Just a clear plastic bag, a heart full of determination, and the guts to cold call the Arizona Cardinals.
She opens up about the good, the gritty, and the completely unexpected parts of being “the first”—and why those handwritten notes might’ve mattered more than any play she called.
What You’ll Discover:
Why a simple handwritten note made national headlines (06:20)
What it really felt like to step onto that NFL sideline (10:35)
The power and pressure of being “the first” in a locker room with no precedent (23:04)
How one cold call changed the course of her life (27:22)
Building trust one conversation, one linebacker at a time (41:42)
Why women in leadership need true advocates, not just mentors (57:13)
There’s something about Jen’s journey that stays with you. The behind-the-scenes moments that don't make it into the highlight reel. The quiet decisions. The handwritten notes. The way she just kept showing up with no rulebook to follow. The quiet courage it takes to be the first. Jen’s story is a master class in showing up fully—even when the playbook doesn’t exist yet.
If you’ve ever wondered how to keep showing up when the path isn’t clear, this one’s for you.
Connect with JEN WELTER
Follow Jen on Instagram or check out her website.
Check out this ESPN article celebrating 10 years since Jen Welter was hired: “How Jen Welter's hire 10 years ago opened NFL to more women”
To see the iconic photo and read more about the handshake moment between Jen Welter and Sarah Thomas, check out this article.
Be sure to subscribe to Things No One Tells You—Lindsay’s podcast all about the real, unfiltered conversations we don’t always have but should. From big names to everyday voices, each episode dives into the moments that shape us. Listen wherever you get your podcasts!
Follow along with Lindsay below!
Full Transcript
[00:00:00] Jen: And I remember like my mind was just so loud with every bad possible scenario, right? Like picture yourself running out on the field of face planning, and Fred, like international news. You know, like we've all been there, right? It's so human. And I couldn't get out of my mind or out of my own way. And then all of a sudden, I realized it was not the first time I had felt that.
[00:00:27] And that every single one of my players was in that moment, too. Like this is that big dream for that little boy who caught a pass and said, maMamaI'm gonna play in the NFL one day. Right? Stop it. Stop it. This is where they all are, right? But that's, yeah. And the second I realized that, and realized as a coach, it's not about you anymore, right?
[00:00:48] This moment isn't about me, it's about all of those men, and the voices in their heads were probably as cruel as mine.
[00:00:57] Lindsay: Hey everybody, I'm Lindsay Czarniak, and this is Things No One Tells You. This is a podcast about the behind-the-scenes moments that shape who we are, those things that are also really relatable and really connect us.
[00:01:09] So each week I'm gonna talk with Newsmakers Trailblazers in the worlds of sports, entertainment, all things, but also everyday folks, people who are talking about the real stuff that no one tends to share. Follow me at Lindsay Czarniak and be sure to subscribe, rate, and review Things No One Tells You wherever you like to listen.
[00:01:29] Hello everybody, and welcome to this episode of Things No One Tells You. I have known forever, basically, that I wanted to talk to this woman for an episode because I really couldn't wait for you guys to hear her story. I am talking today to Dr. Jen Welter, and I'm gonna give you some backstory here.
[00:01:47] The last time I saw Jen Welter, who is a, I would also describe her as a life coach right now, but she is a coach, a football coach, a football player. And when I think of glass ceilings being broken and people that are continuing to smash them, Jen Welter immediately comes to mind. And what's funny is I've shared here that I usually cover the Indy 500.
[00:02:09] I was at the Indy 500 last year, and e.l.f. Cosmetics, which I love, asked me to partner with them to do a. Twitch broadcast at the 500, talking about makeup, talking about race car drivers who were women, talking about the sport in general. And lo and behold, I go into this tent that is amazing with all this makeup hung on the walls to look like it's in a race shop.
[00:02:32] I mean, it was honestly one of the coolest things I've ever seen. And this woman comes up to me, she's like, Lindsay, and I turn around and it's Jen Welter. And I was like. Oh my gosh, because this flood of memories came back. So I first met Jen in 201,5 and this was when I was working at ESPN. I was doing SportsCenter, but I would do NFL stories on the side.
[00:02:54] And I was sent to cover a story, work on a feature for ESPN, on Dr. Jen Welter, because she had just made history as the first female coach in the NFL. She was working with the Arizona Cardinals, and what I remember most is watching her with the players. When we went there, we went to practice. I remember showing up there, it was so hot, and we're on the practice field and there's Jen just doing her thing, just in it with all the players talking to 'em, you know, laughing with them, getting on them, bringing them things.
[00:03:25] It was awesome. And she was just totally in her element, completely unshakeable. I do wanna use some levity. So what I'm gonna say is, what do you get when you mix a PhD and a playbook?
[00:03:40] A coach who knows how to school you on and off the field. And that is so Jen Welter, because one of my favorite stories in this episode is a story that she shared with me back in the day about one of the ways that she found to really get to her players, and you know, in football and other sports. But what I've learned is, besides the common phrase that players always say of Don't get too high, don't get too low, something coaches always talk about is that the really, really good ones know how to reach basically how to, how to like
[00:04:14] Really touch and get to the players. And we know that there are so many different players. Every player is different. So it's like the coaches that are the Hall of Fame coaches and the ones that just are the most respected are the ones that find a way to get to the different players on their team. And Jen, I saw it with my own eyes, really has that capability.
[00:04:35] And so I want you to listen for the story that she shares about a funny moment and how she did that and how one of the players basically called her out. And I think it's great. I'm so glad he did. In this conversation, Jen is gonna take us back to what it's like actually being the only woman in the room.
[00:04:51] What she learned about showing up coaching with heart and owning your impact. I love that. Owning your impact because it doesn't end once you've just broken that ceiling, even when you're blazing a brand new trail. So I first met Jen in 2015 because I was at ESPN and I was doing some features for NFL coverage and so they asked me if I would go out to Arizona because they wanted to do a feature on this amazing woman out there who was the first female coach, of an NFL team.
[00:05:24] She was coaching the linebackers out there, correct? Yeah. And Jen. it was so cool because I just remember there, I have so many memories about that moment, like going out there, talking to you and the thing that sticks out most is watching you inside the bubble, just. With the players, you know? And so there are so many other things.
[00:05:43] Jen is a speaker, absolutely an entrepreneur. I can't wait to share with you all the things she does, especially in the vein of teaching people about football. It's so cool the way you do it, but like, how do, how do you describe all of the things that make up what Jen Welter does?
[00:06:00] Jen: Well, first of all, let me give y'all background on how I remember this lady, because she did the, I'm gonna make you cry interview.
[00:06:06] That's what I remember.
[00:06:07] Lindsay: No.
[00:06:08] Jen: Yes, you did.
[00:06:09] Lindsay: Really?
[00:06:11] Jen: Yes, you did. You absolutely did. So, remember the story at that time was. And I thought this, like, I'm just gonna tell y'all, I thought the locker room was like Vegas. So what happens in the locker room stays in the locker room.
[00:06:22] Lindsay: Really?
[00:06:23] Jen: But oh, I did, but I had written my linebackers and left them in their lockers.
[00:06:30] Now I thought that that would never make it out of the locker room. I was just
[00:06:34] Lindsay: NFL linebackers guys. So this is, you know, right. This is like, okay.
[00:06:38] Jen: And these were not game notes. These were like about you as a human. Right. And one of my linebackers at the time, Kevin Minter, had told a reporter about these notes and I looked at 'em and I was like, Kev, you kind of sold me out.
[00:06:54] And he was like, coach, that was special. And they needed to know. And I was like, oh. Oh, okay. Right. Because he was, you know, he was our captain and he was that guy, but I did not think that that story would make it out. And then it did. And they called me the noteworthy coach. Then I sit down with this girl and she is like, oh, you wrote notes to your linebackers?
[00:07:18] You mean like this one? And it was the note from Kevin and I was like, oh. So she got me to do the like, now I've gotta read this note on camera. And meanwhile I get a text from Kevin at the same time. I don't know if you knew this. No. And he said, he just sent me a text which said, coach, make sure you get my note back.
[00:07:38] I'm keeping that forever.
[00:07:41] Lindsay: Wow. Yeah. And he still has it. And he still has it. He has it at his mama's house. He said that recently, right?
[00:07:46] Jen: Yeah, I just had to say that because you know, at that time, there was such a perception that guys in the NFL wouldn't take coaching from a woman. My takeaway from that time was that most men have been coached by women their whole lives, and for a lot of those guys, they were there because of these strong women who were in their lives.
[00:08:07] So to actually be able to have that human connection. Was something that they really thrived with, right? And it's not that a woman is better or worse, but how good is it to have a combination of different voices around such a tough scenario? Because what they might be able to talk to me about, they may not have been able to talk to another coach about and vice versa.
[00:08:32] And I think that was such a powerful thing. And now obviously we've seen many women go in and, you know, not only coach in the, in the NFL, but in MLB and in the NHL and the NBA as well. And, I think that different voice is a great addition, especially in very tough environments. And that's really what, what I think my takeaway was and what I encourage other people to remember too.
[00:08:59] Lindsay: Oh, so what did the note say and take me back to the, the beginning of when you decided you wanted to write the note. So the notes 'cause you did it for Yeah, several players. I did, yeah.
[00:09:12] Jen: I did it for all of my linebackers and a couple of the other players that I was close to. But it was the night before that first game.
[00:09:19] And I mean, I swear at that time, I mean, people don't know how hard it was and I, I did my best to just hold it together. But, you know, the commentary was either she's the death of the patriarchy or the champion for all women kind. Right. Like nobody was neutral, no gray area. No, there was, there was no gray area.
[00:09:43] No one was neutral about it. And I often felt like when I walked into a room, which was all men, but not our guys, like our guys were so good. Like, and you could attest to this, like all of everybody who was in Arizona in our bubble, it was such a lovely bubble. It was everything outside that was hard. but I would walk into a room and it was almost as if I had my own theme music, right?
[00:10:06] It'd be like, dun, dun, dun. Like everybody would turn like, here's this chick. Like, I don't know what they thought if the linebackers were gonna just come out and forget how to tackle, but like, it was, you know, it was intense. And the night before that first game, like that Saturday night is, it's the time when all the guys are with their families.
[00:10:26] Like all the work's been done.
[00:10:31] Lindsay: So, first game of the season, right? And
your first time with them in their first NFL game of the season.
[00:10:35] Jen: Yeah, and it's that time when, like, you know, you've done so much work and now all of a sudden it's like, there's nothing you have to do. I didn't have family there.
[00:10:44] It was this, and, and I remember like, my mind was just so loud with every bad possible scenario, right? Like, picture yourself running out on the field and face planning and Fred, like international news, you know, like we've all been there, right? It's so human. And I couldn't get out of my own mind or out of my own way.
[00:11:07] And then all of a sudden I realized it was not the first time I had felt that. And that every single one of my players were in that moment too. Like this is that big dream for that little boy who caught a pass and said, mama, I'm gonna play in the NFL one day. Right? Stop it, stop, stop it. This is where they all are.
[00:11:25] Right? But that's, that's, yeah. And the second I realized that and realized as a coach, it's not about you anymore, right? This, this moment isn't about me, it's about all of those men and that the voices in their head were probably as cruel as mine. And I want, I wished I could have every one-on-one conversation I'd had with every one of those men because I knew what the voices in their heads would say if it was my voice.
[00:11:54] And so I took a lift to a hallmark and I went and I bought notes. And I, I even second guessed myself. I was like, this might be a really bad career move, right? Like this could be the worst coaching decision in the history of the NFL. Forget not giving the ball to beast mode. These notes could be it. Right?
[00:12:13] And, and then I got back to my hotel and I sat up pretty much all night and just remembered every one-on-one conversation. 'cause I was big on one-on-ones with the guys. I'm not a yeller, you know, like it's that personal minute that somebody just needs a minute. Right. And Kevin's note in particular was about owning the huddle because at that time the question mark surrounding Kevin Minter is he was having to step up in some really big cleats.
[00:12:44] Larry Foote was now his inside linebacker's coach whom I worked hand in hand, and that was the huddle collar the year before, which is not normal to go right from a player to a coach. But Bruce knew how special Larry Foote is.
[00:12:59] Lindsay: Bruce Arians, who was the head coach of the Cardinals.
[00:13:02] Jen: Yep, and he knew how special Larry Foote is and, you know, just put him right into that role.
[00:13:08] And that speaks to Bruce as a human. But everybody was comparing Kevin to Larry Foote. And, the question was, could he own the huddle? 'cause Kevin's a little bit more on the quiet side, right? You have no question about whether he could hit the gap, whether he knew each knew his job, none of those things, but owning his huddle.
[00:13:30] And so, you know, I really focused in for Kevin on, you know, own the huddle. Leave no doubt that this is your job and you don't have to lead like, you know, like someone else did, like lead your way. And so I went through this whole process, like I really realized, and I love that this is the, the things that no one tells you.
[00:13:49] Because after I got myself through that very hard note and realized this first of all, that like when you're writing notes, you should paste yourself. Because if you start out with me with really long notes in the beginning, then you have to write really long notes to everybody because
[00:14:05] Lindsay: It's like signing a yearbook, Jen.
[00:14:07] Jen: That's right. Right? That's right.
[00:14:08] Lindsay: It makes a difference.
[00:14:09] Jen: Yeah, it makes a difference. And guys, compare everything. So the last thing I wanted…
[00:14:14] Lindsay: Pause, pause. They compare everything. Guys compare.
[00:14:16] Jen: We know this for real, you know this, know compare everything something, but like No, no, no. Really, they compare everything. Oh, that's, can you imagine if, like, I wrote a book to one guy and the next one was like, have a great game.
[00:14:27] Literally, I could hear the conversation as like, mine's bigger than yours is, right? Like, we know these things would happen. They, they, they guys talk. We think that ladies talk. No, no, no. Guys talk. They talk about everything. So if nobody told you that I'm, I'm dropping it hot right now, but so I mean, I literally wrote notes till like I couldn't feel my fingers anymore.
[00:14:50] And then the next day I'm like, wow. Oh, I gotta, I got a game to get to. So it was the best thing in the world because the time flew by because it wasn't about me, it was about them. And as a coach, that's what's so important. But now like, let's talk about a rookie. Okay? 'cause I'm a full rookie, like I went from women's football and being in a place where the closest I've ever, ever been to in NFL sidelines was the nosebleed section to now my first NFL game as a coach.
[00:15:22] Now, I knew this stadium, but the guys are socialized, right? Most of the guys I was there with are former players. They know the game day protocol, et cetera. Nobody thought to tell me anything like, and I swear to you this is true. I didn't know if the clear plastic bag rule applied for me too. What I did not know.
[00:15:43] I, I had no idea. So I take my notes like they, you didn't have like a coaching, like credentialed that No, I mean, I have a coaching credential, but nobody said like, you don't have to go in the main, like nobody said anything. And I also didn't know where I was gonna change. I was not gonna change in the locker room.
[00:16:00] Just sounded awkward. So I just got dressed. Wow. You know what I mean? Like I just got dressed like for most of the stuff. So if I needed to tuck into a stall, I could. 'cause there weren't women's locker rooms yet. Yeah, right. So like I just didn't want anything to be awkward. So I'm trying to mitigate all the variables.
[00:16:18] Right. No one told me anything, but then I'm like, what do I do with my notes? Like I don't want them to take my notes. So I put all of my notes into a clear plastic cardinals bag. And I'm like carrying it with me. I don't know how I'm gonna get the notes in the locker room. I don't even know if I'm really supposed to go in, 'cause I don't want to be awkward for the guys.
[00:16:39] Like I don't wanna Sure, right. I don't wanna see him any kind of way. 'cause then I'd never get eye contact again. Like, and so I went to James Bettcher and I was like, Bettch, I, I have notes for the guys. I was wondering if it was okay.
[00:16:54] Lindsay: And Bettcher at the time
[00:16:56] Jen: was the defensive coordinator. Yes, so I was like, I don't know if it's okay, but I have notes for the guys, and I want to have the equipment guys put 'em in their locker.
[00:17:05] And he looks at me and he's like, coach, it's way too late for notes. We put in the game plan on Wednesday and I'm like. It's not that kind of note, right? Like these are on like leadership. Oh, he thought you were, oh, wow. Yep, yep. 'cause again, things that nobody told you, nobody told me anything. Nobody told me you couldn't write notes.
[00:17:25] Nobody. I just did what I would've wanted as a player, right? Like I have my player brain on. So then I go to the equipment guy and you know, for those of you who don't know what an equipment like, room looks like, it's like a stall in a horse barn. And I'm five. That's fascinating. Look, and I'm five two, so y'all, like, when I went up to the equipment guy's thing, I'm like this, right?
[00:17:48] Like, and this poor equipment guy, I mean, he'd been with the Cardinals for a very long time and he'd never had to deal with having a woman there, right? Like when he called me the first time I talked to him and he was like, tell me what your pants size is, sir. What kind of pants are we talking about here?
[00:18:05] It's not the same for girls. And he's like, it's a pant. And I was like,
[00:18:09] Lindsay: Oh my god.
[00:18:10] Right? So yeah, he, when I knock on his little thing and he looks down and sees me there, you know, he is probably looking around like, is this a kid or is it a prank? Right. He is like, Ugh. So I take my little bag of notes and I put it up there and I was like, excuse me sir.
[00:18:25] Bettcher said you would put these notes in their locker for me. And I like ran away before he told me it was not okay. So you know, all of these things on like a day that everyone else assumes that I know because they all know it. It's fluid, it's second nature for them. But I'm the ultimate outsider, so nobody's telling me anything.
[00:18:42] Then, you know, we get out to the field and I just remember it's the funniest thing because like I didn't wanna be in the locker room again. So it feels really long. Like there's a really long time there. And Darryl Drake, who was our receiver's coach at the time was like, long time, isn't it coach? And I was like, yeah.
[00:19:01] And he goes. Do you know what we coach is doing this time? And I was like, no. And he goes, go and talk to the coaches on the other side. Make sure that you have a relationship with them because you know this game is not for long. And in a heartbeat you could be out of a job. And he said, you won't have the same connections that we did.
[00:19:22] And he said, as a matter of fact, see that guy over there? That's Brad Childress. 'cause we were playing against the Kansas City Chiefs. And he said, chilly Iss a good guy. He could hire you. One day he walks me over, introduces me to Brad Childress, who fast forward did later hire me when he was the head coach of the Atlanta Legends.
[00:19:40] Right? So then. It goes by so fast. I did not faceplant in front of the world. The linebackers made plays. I met Sarah Thomas. It was Sarah Thomas's first game was mine, so okay. We had a handshake before the game. And you wanna talk awkward, like they're like, you're gonna accidentally on purpose kind of run into this person for this iconic handshake because this is the first time in the history of the NFL.
[00:20:05] You've had a female coach. First time in the history of the NFL, you've had a female ref. And it'll be the first time in the history of the NFL that that handshake between a ref and a coach happens to be two women. And so I guess they had told, and Sarah and I have become great friends. Yeah. And I guess she was a little mad.
[00:20:24] She was like, I just wanna do my job. I wanna do this thing. Like, why do I have to meet this woman? Like, you know, make it a big deal. Make it a big deal. And she said, we talked about this later, and she goes, Jen, when I met you, she is like the first thing that you said. You just made me laugh and I knew we were gonna be okay.
[00:20:43] She's like, do you rem? Do you remember what you said? And I was like, no. And she goes, you just looked at me. And you go, well, it's awkward, isn't it? And she said, I couldn't help but laugh. And then I knew we were gonna be all right. And I was like, oh, well everybody who looked at the pictures was like, you guys are laughing, Jen.
[00:21:00] We know it was you. What did you say? Right? So we get through the handshake. Both Sarah and I survive. I think, you know, I have not made the worst decision in the history of the NFL. 'cause a few of the guys were like, coach, we appreciate those words. And I'm like, they're happy. It's quiet. We're good. And then a reporter came up to me after the game and she said, you know, history was made tonight, university of Phoenix Field.
[00:21:30] For the first time, a woman took the sidelines as a coach and coach. We heard you did something very special for your players. You left notes in their locker. Wow. Would you care to comment? And I was like, Ugh. Didn't know. And I was like, Ooh, they sold me out. But she told me that, when she asked him, Kevin Min said in his whole career, he never had a coach care like that.
[00:21:56] And all I could think of was, well, you own your huddle then Kevin Minter, right. Lead and do it your way. And that's, that's really what it was. And but what a funny thing because you know, like getting back to the things that no one tells you. No one told me anything. Right. Like, I literally was like, well, I better just put things in the clear plastic bag 'cause you know that they don't want anybody.
[00:22:20] Yeah. You know, like just those little things that everybody would assume you just know. How do you know?
[00:22:27] Lindsay: And if you, if you unpack that, it's, it's probably, tell me if I'm wrong, but like you don't. You don't necessarily wanna ask head coach Bruce Arians those questions. Of course, you could. Or you know, you could, but it's, it's that point of like, Hmm, I should know this, but you really shouldn't because no one's done it.
[00:22:46] Right. But it's like this awkward, and it's, it's funny because that takes me back to doing Yeah. Like I've, I've been that person too. Like when you're in a bathroom stall and you're changing your outfit because you're going from A to B and you're like, don't wanna ask for a dressing room or whatever it is.
[00:23:04] Jen: you don't wanna be difficult. Right. Like, and it's, it we're so used to, I think when you're used to being the one, it's like there are certain places where you can just mitigate the awkward and Yes, that was, that was always me. But like, you know, Bruce Arians is such a cool dude 'cause he would just laugh about things.
[00:23:24] Right. Like, and I remember, you know, even the coaching gear that they gave us, like. I thought I kind of had to wear it all. Which like, first of all, I mean the shorts, I asked to get the same shorts as the guys because there was some other stuff. And so there was like a running joke of Coach Jen or Big Red shorts because they didn't have shorts in my size.
[00:23:45] So I mean, I looked like I was super sagging, like all of my basketball shorts that were below my knees or wrapped up. So I looked like I had a spare tire 'cause I had to wrap 'em up like six times. Yes. So I wouldn't trip over myself. But like on the first day I put on like, you know, the fitted cap that doesn't have a place for a ponytail.
[00:24:05] Yes. It's the worst. So I had, it's
[00:24:07] Lindsay: gotta be like, and it's gotta be
[00:24:08] Jen: and or it's gotta be your hair's down or whatever. So I put the hat on and I'm trying to do stuff at practice, but I'm not one of those just stand there people like I was a football player, so I go to like run and the thing flies off and I was like, ugh.
[00:24:20] And so I just took it and I like chucked it and BA starts laughing. He goes. It didn't last too long, coach. And I said, it doesn't have a place for a ponytail. And the next day he made them give me like a, a hat with a ponytail. So I at least had the option, right? Like it was just, he just laughed. He was like, he goes, you don't have to wear the hat coach.
[00:24:42] And I said, I didn't know I, I don't wanna be outta line. And he was like, you don't have to wear the hat. And I was like, good. Like, but he was, he was just so good and human about everything that we laughed a lot.
[00:24:55] Lindsay: I mean, wait. And so one of the things I love, too, is you cold-called, right? Like you really, and, and I, when I was thinking back about your story, 'cause obviously you just mentioned it, Jen is a player, she is a phenomenal player, is a medalist, like, is just all the things.
[00:25:16] But in terms of your coaching career. You cold-called and made your way to Ian's assistant. Yes. Correct. Yes. And I am such a believer in cold calling. I will tell you, I wanna hear your version of your story, but I, that's how I got my very first job out of college, is I had sent my resume lverywhere I really wanted to work at MTV.
[00:25:39] That wasn't happening. I just knew I wanted to do television. Yeah. Like I thought I wanted to do maybe news or entertainment, sports. I was lucky enough to like have my journey pivot along the way in this amazing way because I did not realize how, how much I would love the world of sports covering it as a journalist.
[00:25:56] Anyway, I called CNN because I had sent my stuff, I hadn't heard, and I was just literally going down this list of like, who do I need to call? And when I cold-called. I got this man, and he was in charge of the video journalist program, which was like the entry-level job at CNN. You're like behind the scenes getting coffee, ripping scripts.
[00:26:16] 'cause we were so old that that's how you know, you read your stuff
[00:26:19] Jen: And well, thankfully we're both, you know, 29 'cause we're like days apart with our birthdays.
[00:26:25] Lindsay: So we are, we're wonderful Scorpios who are just so young and donate. That's right. We don't, he so, but the guy I remember on the other line, he was like, Oh Lindsay, it's so funny.
[00:26:37] I actually have your resume in the stack of five on my desk. And he or he had a bigger stack. But I always think of that because I'm like. Had I not called that day, mine doesn't get put to the side because it's simply a connection with a name. That's all right. And I didn't know a soul down there, but it, that was the sole reason that I got a call back to be a part of that program.
[00:27:00] And then they're like, oh, by the way, we need you next week in Atlanta. And I'm like, but is my senior year. I just graduated and they're, you know, that's it. All my friends are going to the beach. I'm like, see ya. I am such a believer in following your instincts and your gut and just cold calling. So tell me how you did it, because obviously you impressed somebody to get all the way to making an impression on Bruce Arians to have him invite you out to Arizona.
[00:27:22] Jen: Well, I mean, it was the craziest thing, right? Because, you know, I went from being the first woman to play men's pro football as a non kicker, right? On the Texas Revolution. So played with the guys and you know, no one thought I would last a day, much less a year. And I had played with those guys for a year.
[00:27:44] And then we got a new head coach, Wendell Davis.
[00:27:48] Lindsay: And how was it playing with them? Was it, were they welcoming? Was it great? What do you describe it as?
[00:27:53] Jen: Well, I would say it was painful and one of the best things I've ever done in my life. Clinton Solomon, who was a former Chicago Bears wide receiver, probably gave me some of the best advice I have ever had in my life.
[00:28:09] And it was, you have to be a part of our locker room. It can't be you versus us. It has to be us versus the world. And in that he is like, Jen, if you take on, he's like, let me be your champion. He is like, if you are having to take on guys one after the other, after the other, we, the way we are, we'll put our hands up and be like, she's got this.
[00:28:34] But if it's a matter of us versus them. Then it'll be all of us with you included. And that's a different dynamic. And so I didn't, I didn't understand that at first until he stepped up as a champion in a real way. And then it changed the whole dynamic because man, I was earning respect by being there and taking the hits, et cetera.
[00:29:00] But when he called someone else on bad, on bad behavior, then it shifted everything. And so it really taught me just how to be a great teammate, especially at a time when I wasn't the dominant player, right? Like I knew how to be a great teammate when I was a starter and I was an og and I was protective and I was this, but on theirs, I was the bottom of the totem pole fighting to like make practice squad each week.
[00:29:29] Yeah, and spoiler alert, like when you're on Practice Squad, you still get hit and it means it matters less. So they don't care if you get hit and you get hurt, right? Like so you're taking all the hits. And so you know, those guys, like we came together and made something really special and he still talks to about it to this day, is like, it changed all of us for the better.
[00:29:51] Like all of us, me as a person, as a teammate, I learned how to work with those guys, how to laugh, how to roll with the punches, you know, all of that stuff. And they learned like how to be protective and how to listen to a different voice. And so I already had their respect and that's what caught the attention.
[00:30:12] When we got a new head coach the following season, Wendell Davis and Wendell saw how the guys responded to me that got him interested. Then he grilled me on football and what was good with the team and what wasn't, and. I had already decided I, I couldn't physically do another year. Right. Like, I mean, I'm, I'm good.
[00:30:32] I survived a year getting hit by them every year. I lovingly say it aged me dog years that one year. But there were things with the team that just weren't right. Like, and so I thought like, drop the mic, like I'm gonna leave this place better than I was, and I'm, I'm gonna burn it down. And so I was probably way more honest than I would've been if I thought I was auditioning for a job.
[00:30:58] and then the next day, like Wendell calls me and says, you have to coach this football team. And I instinctively said, no girls don't do that. 'cause at that time there were, yeah, at that time there were no women coaching in, in professional men's football. So there was no one I could look at and say, I could do what she's doing.
[00:31:16] And mind you, like this is, this is why representation is so important, is because, you know, you, like people say, see it, be it for a reason, like. And though it sounds like it's become a catchphrase, it really does give you that spark of hope. Of dream, right? To like be able to see yourself walking in someone's shoes or you know, carrying that clipboard or whatever it is.
[00:31:41] And so I just instinctively said no. And thankfully coach football coaches are really stubborn. They don't like to be told no. And he said, not a lot of guys are gonna give you this opportunity. You're taking this job. And I said, no. And I hung up on him. Then he called me back and told me about myself because he had already taken the job on my behalf.
[00:32:01] And he said, you can quit. What? Yeah. Oh yeah. He said, you can quit if you want to. But see we women. We may not always project ourselves up into those positions that are bigger than what we've done. Right? Like, we over check boxes because especially being a first where we don't wanna be the last too So like, that's a lot of pressure, right?
[00:32:23] A lot of weight on the shoulders, but we also don't quit. So it's really important when you see something in, in a woman or somebody who's not been represented in a certain way, that you direct them, that you show them and you directly mentor them, because we may not do it on our own. I wouldn't have, um mm-hmm.
[00:32:41] Thankfully, once I got there, you know, the guys really listened. I, you know, I was really good at the, especially the relationship part. I mean, my PhD is in sports psychology, so none of that was new. But Wendell was like, I can teach you how to coach football. What I can't teach is those relationships.
[00:33:00] I can't teach how those guys respond to you and how they respect you. Like you're the right person for this. Thankfully we had, a pretty outstanding general manager at that time who brought me in first as a player and then okayed me being a coach, which was none other than Hall of Famer, Tim Brown. So I've had some very strong advocates throughout my career, like him, you know, like Bruce Arians.
[00:33:26] But I would not have picked up the phone and called the Arizona Cardinals if it wasn't for a couple of things. Number one, it was Sarah Thomas being hired as the first female ref in the NFL history. That opened the conversation, right? So when she was hired a reporter, and I'm so thankful for y'all. That is why I'm always like, yeah, what do you need?
[00:33:50] How can I support you? Yeah. 'cause you need the conversation to be pushed somewhere. And that's the power of great journalism and great conversation because it was a reporter, and I wish I knew who, 'cause I would send flowers who asked Bruce Arians because of Sarah Thomas being hired if he could ever see a woman coaching in the NFL.
[00:34:12] And his answer was simple. He said, the second a woman proves she can make these guys better, she'll be hired. Enter, yeah, Jen and the phone. But it was also my head coach at the time who, like, I kind of brought it up to him, a nd he is like, well, we should call Bruce. Can you get me his number? Don't you guys have like a little black book or something like that, right?
[00:34:36] Like, isn't there, [00:34:37]
Lindsay: There is, in fact, well, the media has one,
[00:34:39] Jen: Right? Well, I didn't. But, so it was like, I don't know, can I, and why am I doing this? And so I literally got online and I'm like, Arizona Cardinals number, and I like. Just randomly called and I, you know, I was calling on behalf of the head coach of the Texas Revolution, in indoor football, which, for those of y'all who don't know, yes, I followed Kurt Warner's footsteps.
[00:35:09] So he has a movie about playing in the IFL while I played in the same league. And I think I did it better. You know, they say Who wore it better? I think I did. But you know, I, I just called on behalf of my head coach because my head coach wanted to talk to their head coach 'cause he'd heard about what Bruce Arians said about a woman coaching in the NFL.
[00:35:32] And though it was not the NFL, there was in fact a woman already coaching, in men's professional football. And I was apparently very convincing because I eventually got, transferred all the way to Wesley Godwin, who's now like the defensive coordinator of Clemson, by the way. And Wes, small world.
[00:35:56] Yeah. And Wes, and it was right before NFL draft though. So this is what's funny. So for those of you who have watched the movie draft day, so again, things no one tells you, like that whole thing of like, there's a life and we're gonna have like a funeral in the field and do all that stuff. That does not exist before NFL draft.
[00:36:13] Nothing exists outside of those draft people, right? So there's not.
[00:36:17] Lindsay: Even sleeping, that happens.
[00:36:19] Jen: No, there's no sleeping, there's no life. Yeah. So like that whole work-life balance thing, it's like that that is, that is a myth. It is like Bigfoot Jonathan, right? So I get to Wesley, who knows how, because of the timing, and he said, you know, I think BA would really want to take your head coach's call.
[00:36:38] But it's, you know, it's this NFL draft timing is not good. So if you'll leave me his number, right? Like, I will have Bruce call him back. I completely thought I had gotten blown off.. I did not think, like, yeah, Bruce Arians is definitely calling back. But I was really proud of myself that I was ballsy enough to call the Cardinals.
[00:37:02] Like that was the win to me. Like I can't believe I did that. Right. Like, and I got through and I got through and someone actually listened, right? Yeah. And so I, you know, of course went in, and later ended up coaching with Wesley and I had to ask him, 'cause we're still good friends. And I was like, Wes, did you know it was me that day?
[00:37:20] And he goes, No, I didn't. And I was like, when did you figure it out? He is like, when I met you.
[00:37:30] Lindsay: So what does he say about that now?
[00:37:33] Jen: I mean that, oh, he's like what a, you know, Wes is like, he is so, he's such a, a great guy. And I like, I literally was like, dude, 'cause he has an eidetic memory. Like, the guy is brilliant. Like, Wes is truly brilliant. And like, I was like, I would, I would like, you know, and he was the assistant at that time, so some people don't even pay attention, but I'm like, this guy's a star, right?
[00:37:53] Like, I could see it and I would always joke. I'm like, Wes, you know, this doesn't happen without you. Right. And he'd be like, like, he's a little shyer, right? Like, he is like, yeah, he is like, he is like, that was a good call. My, you know, he'd just kind of be like, yeah, it was a good call. I'm like, absolutely.
[00:38:08] It was good play call. I, at that time though, thought he would, was on track to go like the GM route, but he always said he wanted to be a head coach. So I think he's well on his way.
[00:38:19] Lindsay: Well, so what, like, when you get there, what were some of the things that you had to deal with or overcome, I should say?
[00:38:25] Like in getting them, and you had already had that experience, like you said, but getting the players to be on board with taking coaching from a woman.
[00:38:38] Jen: Well, you know, I, I give them before the notes, right. You know, I give them a lot of credit. Like, the guys were really good, I think. In any situation, you know, there's early adopters and then there's kind of ones who kind of, you know, a little bit more wanna wait and see.
[00:38:54] But I found out when I, when I wrote my book, I went back and talked to BA about what went into that decision and he told me something that was really quite brilliant and it's advice I would give anybody who wanted to maybe make change but didn't, didn't know he set that situation up for success beforehand.
[00:39:16] Bruce did, he actually, had to ask the leaders in his locker room for input first, like he said, after he met me, you know, and he had brought me out to OTAs, had conversations with me and in person and, and had said like he really wanted to do this, but he didn't yet know if he could. And I guess I always assumed the yeses that he needed to get started up, up top.
[00:39:44] And then maybe filtered down. You know, so many times when somebody enact change, it's like, you're gonna do this because we've got a girl now, and here you go, right? Yeah, yeah. Like, here you've got a girl and they're like, we don't know if we want a girl. Right? No, he, he went to them first and he left it up to the leaders in his locker room to make that call.
[00:40:06] So they already had a vested interest, in creating change. And I think, I think that's so special. 'cause in something like, you know, the NFL right? Like larger than life, the absolute pinnacle of football on the planet, there's change is not always an option. And mm-hmm. The fact that he gave the players the opportunity to be a part of history, I think rather than being skeptical of someone, like they had ownership in my success.
[00:40:42] And I will tell you. Those guys knew everything about me before I walked in the door. They had watched my game film, Lindsay, they did their really home. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They were like, coach is a dog. Like she could tackle anybody. Like they were like, I watched your game film. Like they're like, I You really played with those guys.
[00:41:00] Like what were they like to Yeah, so they were, they were excited and they were curious and they were really beyond anything else. They were so proud to be a part of history and they still do, like, I, when I see 'em, they're like, yo, where's the movie? I want a cameo. Like, I have not seen this movie yet.
[00:41:20] Where's the docu, coach? What's going on? Like, we, we haven't seen the story anywhere and, and, and we're not, we're not happy about it. Yeah. I saw Calais at the Pro Bowl and he is like, coach, I had to check everybody, you know, we got women around now, a lot of women in the league, and I have to say, I had to tell him, but I had the first, and so I think.
[00:41:42] I think they were really just so proud that I maybe didn't experience some of the pushback that I would've expected. The places Interesting. Yeah. The places where I found it harder, like some of the guys, like I remember having a conversation with Corey Redding, who was an OG at that time. It was not directly in my room, but you know, I'm, you know, me lens, I'm pretty consistent on how I treat people.
[00:42:07] And I think we'd had somebody get cut that he was close to, and Sea Red was upset about it, right? Like, and I was like, Hey, are you good? And he was like, he just looked at me. He was like, you really are who you say you are, aren't you? And I was like,
[00:42:25] yeah. And he is like, you've been the same person since minute one. And I was like, that's all you're gonna get? And he goes, yeah. He's like, but Coach, how do you, how do you not get attached? He is like, 'cause you know you have a start date and an end date. That's hard. And he is like, I kind of laid back.
[00:42:41] 'cause as many times as I've like really liked vibed with guys in camp, I wait now until I see if they make the roster because I don't, I don't wanna get hurt.
[00:42:53] Lindsay: That's fascinating perspective.
[00:42:54] Jen: Yep. And I said I'm doing nobody any favors if I don't go a hundred percent. Like I would always regret it and I'm gonna, I'm gonna do everything that I have for as much time as I have.
[00:43:08] And I, I think that's the only way to live. Right. And we really just had a great conversation because he was upset, and I noticed it. And then he told me kind of the, you know, the injury, like you can't come back and it, you, you can't come back until you can go full speed. 'cause if they get bad tape on you, they can cut you with not an injury settlement.
[00:43:31] And I just kinda looked at him and I was like, oh, I didn't know that. And he is like, you didn't, did you? And I was. No, I'm not, I'm not from this world, right? Like, I'm not, I'm not fluid in some of those things that people would expect that you knew. And I think, you know, for him it was really refreshing that I was, you know, I was just there for the football.
[00:43:52] I, I had no political connections. There was no, you know, it wasn't a political move for me to get hired. It was just, you know, I'm, I'm here to make you guys better and to be a good human in the process. So
[00:44:05] Lindsay: I think that, you know, what's fascinating about that is right, it's like you're showing them that they're seen.
[00:44:13] They've got a ton of people around them, but it's like they can't, you give them the opportunity because of the nature of how you are to be vulnerable. Yeah. Right. And that's, that's such a huge key. But also as you were saying that, I was thinking about all the people around these players.
[00:44:30] Jen: Yeah.
[00:44:30] Lindsay: And I don't care how good you are or how rookie you are, at some point you've got an agent, you've got, you know, the, the, this, the, that, the endorsement, the other, the publicist, whatever you have.
[00:44:41] But at some point, someone along the line typically is like, oh, don't talk to that. Like, especially if there's a contract negotiation. Yeah. Or if, if a guy is facing uncertainty, then all of a sudden they're not supposed to have the connection or the conversation with the coach. And I have always, I know that that's a part of the business.
[00:45:00] Mm-hmm. But I really think it's hard. And frankly on a very different level, I've been in that situation with agents, with jobs when contracts are up and you're like. But really you're gonna go in there and speak on my behalf and really, they're gonna know that I really do genuinely like them. Right. And I really do want, there's something amiss with that whole thing.
[00:45:17] Yeah. Now I know that, you know, there are reasons that obviously people need representation, but I do think you can't get beyond the real people to people importance of, as you've been saying, the relationship of it. And I think that's also why what you said in the beginning of this conversation, you bring to the table that amazing connection.
[00:45:40] Also the smarts. And also, and by the way, like, I just have to note, like, what does it feel like when you really tackle someone? Like what is that like for you? Oh, it's the
[00:45:48] Jen: best feeling in the world. Seriously. Like what? Like it's the best feeling in the world. I mean, there's, first of all, a good, a good tackle doesn't hurt the tackler or the tackley, right?
[00:45:59] When you do it right, it's exhilarating, right? Like it is, it's, I mean, you. You are taking somebody off of their feet and like, but it doesn't hurt. It's the most empowering feeling in the world. So tell me how, so I can try this on Melvin. Okay. So, so the power of a good tackle, first of all. Mm-hmm. Like Right.
[00:46:23] And, you know, we've talked about, you mentioned a little bit, and I didn't get to lean in, was like, a day in the life like my women's Yes. Training camp, right? So one of the things I believe is that tackling every woman should know how to do it. It's not a football imperative, it's a life imperative, right?
[00:46:39] Like you, we tackle big things. You should know how to do it physically. So cheat code, first of all, I tell everybody like, it does not matter. And they'll tell you like, that's true. Like, there are certain non-negotiables with me. Like if I go in to guest at a camp, I'm like, I wanna work on tackling period.
[00:46:56] Like the guys will remember it when I tell them. And the first thing I say is, I can tackle your ass and not even mess up this face. Like this makeup will not move because this part of my face should not come into contact. Now in a live game, yes. Like somebody turns and you're stu, you're gonna get that right.
[00:47:16] But like a good form tackle, if we're learning it is cheek to cheek. So my cheek to your booty cheek, yep. Mm-hmm. And then I'm going to wrap like, 'cause I'm undersized too, so I, you'll never see me like just throw a shoulder into somebody. That doesn't work. That's bad. That's bad for 'em. And I get mad when people do it right.
[00:47:40] So I'm gonna wrap my arms around. So your booty cheek's right here. My cheek is here. I'm gonna use the bottom bubble as a shelf, right? Because that's something good to hold onto because you've gotta get low. Right? So low woman wins. This is a game of leverage. Okay, so, cheek to your cheek, l
[00:47:59] Lindsay: LWW
[00:48:01] Jen: Right, bottom bubble. I'm gonna grip there and then I should be able to, the way I teach it is I should be able to pick you up off the ground and walk three steps and then put you down. Because if I do that fast, then it's just gonna be like a DDT. And those are the ooey tackles, right? Like those are the ones where you see a guy get underneath him and he kind of body slams him.
[00:48:23] Yes. So that's the form. But the way to learn it is that three step drop. Because what I know is this, right? So you should superwoman on contact. So you should be big chest, because what it means if I'm big chest like this, is that my back is not rounded. You cannot superwoman and round your back. So one of the errors that a lot of people make tackling is that they round their back.
[00:48:47] Once I do this, I have no strength. I have no power. Even in doing this, you feel like, right, like the body image is bad. So you're here, boom. Cheek to cheek use the bubble lift and you wanna make sure you don't leave any of your junk in the trunk. Okay. So a lot of times when people lose power on their tackle, it's 'cause their booty's still back.
[00:49:08] So maybe, yes, I got my, my chest up, but then if my, my booty's back here, I never got the power of that squat thrust. Yeah. So you want like, like picture doing a squat in the gym and like finishing almost up on your toes because you had to squeeze your, your tushy is all your power, so you had to squeeze your booty all the way through.
[00:49:30] So I should be like really super like this DDT and drop and that's how you become like a lights out, consistent tackler. And it's really a rugby style tackle. That's because that's awesome. I played rugby first. Yes. And it is the best feeling.
[00:49:44] Lindsay: That is so cool. I do think the juxtaposition of what you're talking about, the woman with bringing, you know, those sensibilities partnered with not only your talent as a coach, but the head coach.
[00:49:57] It makes so much sense. How far do you think women have come? We know that now women are everywhere, but I think there's still a lot more to be done. Like I think, like I, I wanna see more women coaches out there, you know, I wanna see you there on the sidelines too. Like what, what is it that you think women need to do or what can we do more of to see more of that?
[00:50:17] Jen: Well, to, to go with your point, we have come a long way, but I always want more. So I, yeah, I lovingly push back on that. You know, they say patience is a virtue. It's not one of mine. Okay, good. I thought you were gonna say be patient. No, I wasn't like, no, I, I mean that is, that is not where I'm strong. I, I applaud the NFL in what they've done in being intentional to develop a pipeline for women in coaching.
[00:50:43] I think that's very important because one of the hardest things is the connectivity, is like, you know, I tell people, they're like, well, is it harder because you're a woman? I'm like. It's not harder, per se, just because your gender is different. Like, let's take that out of the equation, but let's also be a little logical.
[00:51:01] Let's think about guys and the natural network that they have. If they played high school football together, they played college football together, they played on three teams in the pros. That's a natural network where you have through lines that become a difference between knowing of someone and knowing someone, right?
[00:51:24] Because they're all always gonna be question marks, and there's always a narrative beyond what we can control of, oh my gosh. Like, I mean, think about it. What if, what if Bruce Arians had been looking for a woman to hire, right? Like, I wanna hire a woman coach. Does anybody know a woman? Harder for less likely that they would have known a woman who was capable because they weren't in all of those natural networking scenarios.
[00:51:52] Right. So that's one of the biggest things where I see that we still need more progress is because there is a very big difference because again, knowing of someone and knowing them personally, and then I think it's even moving with intention and guidance. This will probably shock all of your listeners, but throughout my entire career, I have never been blessed to have like that team of people you mentioned with the athletes.
[00:52:21] Yeah. So whether you talk about a publicist, never had one, a manager, never had one. An agent never had one. Because I was there before it was a thing. It became a thing, but when I did it, everybody was like, hmm. That's interesting, right? Like, and I think, you know, these are the things that we, you, we don't know what we don't know.
[00:52:46] And you know, I, I look back at decisions that I made and I think, gosh, if somebody would've told me I might've done that differently, maybe I'd be further or, you know, but there was very, very little help. Like what, is there a thing that sticks out to you? Oh gosh, so many. Right? But like, you know, I mean, we were talking about this off cameras, so I've had so many people say, gosh, I would love it if you were an analyst.
[00:53:15] I'm like, I would do that, but I don't know how one does that, right? Like, how does one move from one thing to another? Like if you don't have that direct guidance or mentorship. Or an advocate who's in those conversations speaking for you, then how do people know you're available? Right? Like, you can put yourself out there to an extent, but Yeah, you know, I've had, I had someone, you know, just recently say, well, do they know you're available?
[00:53:46] And I'm like, I, I don't know, but how do I change that, right? Because they're like, oh, well you speak all the time. Maybe they think that you just want to do speaking. I'm like, there's also a thing called paying your bills, right? Like, so, I might ideally wanna be coaching right next to somebody, but I'm also not willing to hold up a cardboard sign and say, we'll, coach for food, right?
[00:54:08] Like, there's, there's, you know, there's a give and take. And if you don't have advocates who can help position you for success in the ways that. The people who are making those decisions know how to hear that conversation, then you're probably not in some of those conversations.
[00:54:29] Lindsay: So it's kind of like, instead of if you're the first and you said if you're the first, that you're kind of always figuring it out.
[00:54:39] Oh, always. It's sort of like, and I can relate to what you're talking about being a woman covering sports. Yeah. 'cause there were absolutely trailblazers that I looked up to. But still, I feel like I was enough on the fray of it that it's like you're still having to figure it out. Because those trailblazers were like at really high points where I was, was not at that point.
[00:54:59] And I think, it's sort of like when you're the first, maybe you don't really have an opportunity for mentors. You have an opportunity for advocates. Like you said. It's a little bit like, and you can have mentors that are men. Absolutely. But. That is a little different. It's, it's important, but it's different than walking you through how to, how to know the ins and outs or how to know that you don't need a plastic bag.
[00:55:26] Yeah, a clear plastic bag. Right.
[00:55:27] Jen: I mean, like, and I tell those stories to people because they're like, how did you not know? I'm like, how did no one know to just even give me an idea of like, you know, here's what you need to bring to the stadium? Or, you know, I mean, you don't know what you don't know. And I think yeah, in, in so many situations, I think, like I lovingly say you've done good things and you do, you know, like, like, oh, you've done so much.
[00:55:53] You like, you must have all of the answers. And I kind of go, me, me, me. Nope. I got, I got more questions than answers most of the time. But like, there's this thing about people who are really capable, like, I would say this with you. Like, everything I've ever seen you do is like on point. Super professional looks gorgeous, right?
[00:56:13] Like shows up, pros pro. I wouldn't know what you didn't know, right? Like there's this, right, there's this halo effect around people who do great things that assume that we're great at all things, right? Like, you know what, I, I don't know what you don't know. Like, and then, then I've got people who will assume maybe that I know a lot more than I do about certain things, and they'll ask me a question, I'll be like, I don't know.
[00:56:39] I, I don't know how to do that. And they'll be like, oh, come on. You really do. You're just, you're just downplaying yourself like, no girl. I'm not, I don't know. I, I don't know. Or, or you're, you're holding back the secrets from me. I'm like, Nope. No. Pretty much being honest and sometimes honesty is too much.
[00:56:57] Lindsay: It's such an interesting point. But, so to the people that say, well, do they know that you're available? What do you say? Like, how do you handle that situation? Because I, you know, I've been in situations like that, like as well. But yeah, you all you can do is. Have a conversation, I guess. I don't know. It's such a tricky…
[00:57:11] Jen: Yeah, and like then you don't wanna be too available 'cause then you're what, you're thirsty. Right? Right. Like, I've had people say like, she's, she promotes herself too much. And I'm like, well obviously I don't promote myself enough 'cause I don't have a job.
[00:57:20] Lindsay: What?
[00:57:21] Jen: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean it's, it's kind of the, you know, I think it's, it's all about socialization and culture, right? like…
[00:57:35] Lindsay: Right. That's a good point.
[00:57:37] Jen: You know, as an outsider, you have the benefit of, I guess, just being fresh, right? Because you haven't been like sis, you know, beaten down by the system or whatever. But you also don't know things that probably you should, like I am quite certain that there are people who don't like me, who have never met me.
[00:58:00] Because they don't want the idea of me or you know, like. You know, we always hear statements like, stay in your lane or do this. Well, I even had a lane, right? Like, and you know, at, at some point you're balancing what is maybe a title or a barrier you broke with the reality of life, which is, you know, I, I wish I had the, the experience that, for example, if a guy was in my position who played football for 15 years and won four Super Bowls and was an eight time pro bowler and won two gold medals with the US national team, yeah, I would likely, unless I just didn't make good money decisions, I would at least have, you know, this, this money that I earned throughout my career.
[00:58:58] I made a dollar a game, so that doesn't go very far, right? Like that was the most I made as a woman. Oh yeah. Like you, you know? So being a pro was a state of mind, but it doesn't mean that there was money attached to everything. I did. My first coaching job, I made $75 a week, and most of the time those checks were bouncing, so, mm-hmm.
[00:59:23] It taught me how to be very good and sensitive to the, you know, the life stuff that was living and might have gotten in the way of playing for players. So being very sensitive to be able to pick up on those conversations because I've been there, but it doesn't do well in terms of maybe some of those things that could have been built up, or you could have hired someone to help, or you could have done this.
[00:59:50] Like, I just had to figure it out. I think sometimes the perception of somebody. And the reality of what they're facing or what their hustle is, or what their motivation is, or what their drive is, can be very different. I mean, I remember having it was probably one of those moments, and I'm sure you've had these, like, have you ever had someone who was in a position just financially, where the rules were different from them?
[01:00:23] Then you make an assumption about yourself that left you in a place where you never thought you'd have to go back to, 'cause of where you were in your career. I remember an interview for a job in which I sat across from somebody who said, You know, Jen, I love football so much that anybody who knows me knows I would've played for free.
[01:00:49] What I need to know is, do you love football like I love football? And it was probably to his benefit that he was not in front of my face because I may have, I may have demonstrated that cheek to cheek kept wrap and drop, and it probably would've been the best tackle of my life. But I remember tears coming to my eyes.
[01:01:15] This is way after the Cardinals. This is, you know, I've done a lot of stuff in football. Yeah, and I remember having to go, well, it's fine for you in theory, as a man who's made millions and millions of dollars playing this game. What you have to know is that every single woman who, like me, was brave enough to step foot on the football field in her pads and helmet did in fact play for free because we do
[01:01:55] Love the game that much. This isn't a hypothetical. This is real life, and I certainly hope that no woman who went through what I did ever has to hear you ask that question. And I was so broken in that moment because I thought he'd come so much further than that. But that's, that's the perception versus the reality.
[01:02:24] He may have been able to make certain decisions or pass up on certain opportunities or hire a team with what came from his playing career, and well earned. Bless them, bless every human who has made millions of dollars playing sports. Hopefully, someday that will be the reality for women. But the truth is, WNBA isn't even there yet, and there is no place in the space of football where yet.
[01:02:55] Women are paid to play. So our path, because of that, means that we have had to sacrifice so much that everything we do is driven by the love of the game and finding ways to afford to stay in the game. So I think with that, there's such a, you know, like even going back to the self-promotion thing, like again, what, what would you ask me to do?
[01:03:27] Because it either becomes, you do something that is peripheral to the game. You do something in the game, or you leave the game. And those are really the only options because there's, there's no cushion. There's no fallback. And that's so many women who have climbed whatever that ladder was with the belief that there is something better, and no real roadmap or resource to support that journey along the way.
[01:04:06] Lindsay: Well, you have, you continue to blaze the map and the trail, and I mean, that's true. And you do not only on the field with coaching, with playing, but I mean, you are such an advocate, and I, I love what you're doing with the day in the life, and I know people heard you talk about it, but you are literally changing the lives of women, which is great.
[01:04:28] You can, you bring women and other men who are trying to learn the game and you create a fan experience by showing them what it is like. Day to day. That's what a day in the life is of an NFL player. Yeah. Which is so awesome. And it's sidebar, but that's how I learned the game was as a broadcaster, I was covering the Miami Dolphins and it was so beneficial to be there, like on the ground floor with that team because our station was a partner with their team.
[01:04:52] And it was like we had to interact and learn all the things about the equipment staff. And like, once you know that, and once you also understand positions and players, then you really become a fan, 'cause then you can make your decisions and figure out who you're gonna follow. That's awesome. But also, like you were just down at the Super Bowl and you were doing the activation, trying to champion other amazing women in sports.
[01:05:14] So, what is something, what are three things that no one knows about you that you would love for people to leave here understanding?
[01:05:20] Jen: Oh, let's see. Well, I have to give a shout-out to my sidekick. I have a rescue dog. I'm a big believer in rescues. She rescued me, right? And I think she's a pit chihuahua mix.
[01:05:35] So in her mind, she's big and in her body, she's smaller, just like her mom. I love it. What's her name? Her name is Boss. Nice. Like her boss. So she's, she's a little boss lady. But you know, I think rescues are so important. So that's one. Two, I love anything with kids. I have co-created a kids' book series and actually wrote my first Girls in Flag book.
[01:06:08] So I want to figure out how to get that out there. But with that credit, I do have a bestselling book in FS and spiders. Okay. Right. Bugs and spiders never would've gotten that one. Where can people get your book? So there are still three or four, maybe on Amazon. But the rest of them will hopefully come out.
[01:06:32], I created that series during COVID, because with my background in sports psychology, I just knew I could write to help. You know, we ended up giving away most of the books free on a digital platform called Caribou, because nobody had resources during that time, and the only way you could turn it over fast was on a digital platform, but they are still there.
[01:06:52] And then, number three, I am a really good pickleball player, so, oh, just played in, I love it. Jake Plummer's celebrity Pickleball Tournament last weekend, or, well, two weekends ago. But I am, I'm a big-time pickleball player, so I am always up and, you know, probably. Not very good. You know, you gotta stay outta the kitchen in pickleball.
[01:07:18] And I probably do that in real life too, 'cause I'm not very good there. So everybody's like, you're so good. I love it. Everything. What's your, what's your Achilles heel? It's probably the kitchen in Pickleball in Life.
[01:07:30] Lindsay: I love it. Okay. Well, the last time I saw you in person was the Indy 500 when we were both there, talking about e.l.f. Cosmetics which was so awesome.
[01:07:38] Jen: By the way. Let's just give a real shout-out to the beauty brands that have been really finding their voice in place in sports. yes, from the activation, e.l.f. has been killing it. I'm such a fan. Their whole team is just lovely, but like really bringing beauty into spaces where you don't traditionally think of it.
[01:08:03] And then look at Revlon with Ilona Maher and what they've done there. And then, I think it was L'Oreal who came in and did a commercial with the hockey coach and the NHL. Like, I just love seeing that we're starting to realize that you can be beautiful and a beast, right? Like it doesn't have to be, this one or the other.
[01:08:28] Right? Like, I mean, I've worked with Barbie, a nd they did a Yes. Women in Sports Barbie collection, and I got to be their spokesperson. And to even see that evolution of, you know, yeah, you can be a coach Barbie, right? Like those, I think those things when we talk about like the progress that I'd really like to continue to see in sports, it's businesses like that and brands like that who are bringing.
[01:08:57] their influences on places that are not just about influencers, but are truly influential from a cultural standpoint. Because when we do that, and we know, you know, Dove's been doing some great work on how many girls drop out of sports because of body consciousness, right? Yes. And we wanna show them that you can be beautiful and badass and that your body area is not just an issue, it's not just, it's not an accessory to someone else's success, right?
[01:09:30] That's not what it's there for, an instrument to your success, and how you look is less important than what it allows you to do as an athlete. And I think there's so much power in this culture shift where we're really starting to invest in women and women's sports and athletes, and all areas where there's a lot of true power.
[01:10:02] Lindsay: I agree. It's like letting or finally embracing that women should be seen for all of who they are and embracing that part of it too, and thinking about how, as a man getting ready to go out there and play a game, they have certain things that make them feel strength and confidence, and power. And for women, it's embracing that piece of it.
[01:10:20] I'm a hundred percent with you. I would love to see as much of that as possible. I know
[01:10:25] Jen: I always, I always played in my pigtail braids and, my eyeliner and mascara because one of the things I realized early on in my career is one of the things that pissed people off is that I was cute and small. I was never gonna outdo anybody, but ooh, I could mess with them.
[01:10:45] And so, I just love to see it. I think it's, I think it's a very good evolution of self where we, where we don't have to fit into a box, we can make one that's much more inclusive.
[01:10:59] Lindsay: Love it. Jen Welter, you're the best. Thank you so much.
[01:11:03] Jen: Right back at you, my friend.
[01:11:05] Lindsay: I also love Jen's story of really figuring out not only the locker room logistics, but getting there in the first place.
[01:11:13] And I have said this before, but I believe cold calling and just following up on what it is that you feel in your heart you are meant to be doing, or whatever path you feel like you should be taking, reach out. Just reach out. Jen's story is equal parts grit, strategy, and heart. I remember seeing her in her element, as I said.
[01:11:34] And I also really know that the players she impacted are better now because of their experience with her. So can't wait to see what Jen Welter does next. Thank you so much for joining us, Jen, and thank you for being here for Things No One Tells You. Don't forget a please rate and review, subscribe wherever you get your podcast.
[01:11:52] I'm Lindsay. I'll see you next time. Thanks so much for joining me. I can't wait to see you back here next week. Please don't forget, follow and subscribe to things no one tells you. And of course, if you're listening on Apple Podcasts, don't forget to leave a five-star review because that's really what helps people get more.
[01:12:08] Listeners, we would love to grow this community. We are so grateful that you're a part of it. See you next time.
