Making History in the Winner’s Circle with D. Wayne Lukas and Jena Antonucci: Ep 9
Highlights from the episode:
Learning to lead with both toughness and tenderness
The unspoken emotional toll of being the first to break a barrier
Why legacy isn’t just what you win; it’s what you pass on
The moments that matter most when no one’s watching
Podcast show notes:
When I think about the people who shaped the world of horse racing, D. Wayne Lukas is at the top of the list. But what struck me most in this conversation wasn’t the trophies; it was the tenderness. And the truth-telling. In this special moment, recorded in June of 2024, I sat down with the Hall of Fame trainer D. Wayne alongside Jena Antonucci, the first woman to win a Triple Crown race, for a conversation that spanned decades of horse racing history, personal transformation, and powerful mentorship.
D. Wayne opens up about what it really takes to be great, and how powerful it is to open the door for someone else. Jena shares what she has learned about how actions outpace words every time. We talk about what it really takes to build a lasting legacy, how to know when someone’s got what it takes to really make it, and why making space for others is just as important as crossing the finish line first.
What You’ll Discover:
What Jena learned from D. Wayne outside the spotlight (08:40)
How mentorship changed the course of Jena’s career (12:15)
The difference between toughness and trust (15:44)
What it means to show up, especially when no one’s watching (20:55)
Reflections on legacy, loss, and leadership (27:38)
Why this sport still has so much to teach us (34:02)
If you’ve ever had someone see something in you before you saw it in yourself, this episode will stay with you.
As we mourn the loss of Mr. Lukas and remember his impact, I’m honored to share this never-before-seen interview with you. For more from D. Wayne Lukas, be sure to tune into our previous episode where I shared part of my conversation with him at the 2025 Kentucky Derby (around 41:18), and check out this special blog post to see Mr. Lukas’s poems.
Connect with JENA ANTONUCCI
For more from Jena Antonucci, you can follow her on Instagram.
Be sure to subscribe to Things No One Tells You—Lindsay’s podcast all about the real, unfiltered conversations we don’t always have but should. From big names to everyday voices, each episode dives into the moments that shape us. Listen wherever you get your podcasts!
Follow along with Lindsay below!
Full Transcript
[00:00:00] D Wayne: The thing that I always tell people is if you have a passion for it, you eliminate all the excuses. You'll go without lunch, you'll drive, you know, half a day to get somewhere. You'll go without sleep. With passion, you eliminate all the excuses and you start to get focused and you start to get focused to a point where maybe it isn't all good, but it does carry you to a level that you know you are hoping to get to.
[00:00:32] Mm-hmm. But that's the difference. If I've been here 44 years looking across that shed row over there, if I were to lose that, that passion of weight and being excited about that horse, uh, I would've been gone a long time ago.
[00:00:48] Lindsay: Hey everybody, I'm Lindsay Czarniak, and this is Things No One tells You. This is a podcast about the behind the scenes moments that shape who we are, those things that also are really relatable and really connect us.
[00:01:00] So each week I'm gonna talk with newsmakers, trailblazers in the worlds of sports, entertainment, all things, but also everyday folks. People who are talking about the real stuff that no one tends to share. Follow me at Lindsay Czarniak and be sure to subscribe, rate and review things no one tells you wherever you like to listen.
[00:01:20] Hey everybody, and welcome to things no one tells you. Today's really a special episode of Tea Nty, as we call it. This is one I've been waiting for the right time really to share, and I've told you guys about my love of horse racing. Bear with me here because even if you're not into this sport, this episode is really one that I believe you will take something from because the lessons are similar to things we all go through.
[00:01:42] It really boils down to things no one tells you about relationships with humans and horses. Um, and also just discovering your passion, and carrying on the right attitude. Um, horse racing for me, for a sidebar here has been in my life for a long time because my dad covered it for years with USA Today.
[00:02:02] And so, he would always come home from his travels and share stories about what it was like, and he would talk about this legendary horse trainer from time to time named D Wayne Lukas. And D Wayne Lukas is like the Bill Belichick of horse trainers because he is such an innovator. He came on the scene decades ago and really, as my dad shares, was one of the first trainers to understand his brand.
[00:02:29] And he was, um, a coach before he was a trainer. So he used this really, I think, connective tissue of coach speak with not only media, but with his coworkers. He developed these barns that were lavish and beautiful and really well kept. So every time someone walked in the barns, they would instantly know, oh, that D Wayne Lukas', he would have flower baskets hanging beautiful white, um.
[00:02:56] Siding and it really, up until he passed away in late June, it was very much the same thing. So the first time that I met D Wayne Lukas when I got involved in horse racing was two years ago. And honestly it was like this aha moment for me. I felt it came full circle. I had chills. And it really was this awesome connection that I was able to talk about with my dad because I had heard these stories for so long, and I had heard how he just sits outside of his office along the shed row at the barns and he will sort of hold court and talk to people.
[00:03:28] And that's where I found him. Um, I found him outside the his office at the shed row. And I just remember looking at him and being like. How lucky am I? I'm not crying. How lucky am I that I get to experience one of the things my dad has always talked about, and who would've thought? I would've never thought that.
[00:03:45] So anyway, the fact that I'm sharing this episode, um, after he's passed is sad. It means something to me to be able to share this because I asked D Wayne Lukas after he won the Preakness, he won the Preakness in 2024, and it was the first time in a long time he had won a Triple Crown race. He is so accomplished in the sport, but it symbolized him getting back to the top of the mountain and all of the horse racing world came out to congratulate him because that's how much respect they have.
[00:04:17] But a sidebar is, he was doing it with the horse Seize the Grey, um, which was owned by a syndicate, which means the syndicate was My Race Horse, and it's a group that people pay in a minimal amount to own a tiny share of a racehorse. And there were, there were more than 2,500 people involved in that horse.
[00:04:38] And when that horse won the Preakness, it, it was amazing for all of them. But it also was symbolic of someone who understood what it means to evolve and not just involve as a leader in life, but also as a sport. So I asked Mr. Lukas if he would sit down, um, after the Preakness with fellow horse trainer who became the first female trainer to win a triple Crown race.
[00:05:04] It was Jena Antonucci who won the Belmont with Arcangelo. Jena has become one of my good friends, and I truly believe in every single thing that she does in this sport. I asked the two of them to sit together because I thought, how cool would it be to, at this point in the sport, be able to hear from such a legend in D Wayne Lukas, but also to have the up and coming future of sports, um, after a female had just accomplished what had never been done before.
[00:05:31] So they agreed to sit. It was an absolutely amazing conversation. I usually share a levity with one of my jokes of the day, but today I wanna share a quote from D Wayne Lukas himself. He said, if you have a passion, you eliminate all the excuses. The most important decision you'll ever make in your life is your attitude decision.
[00:05:51] Make it early and make the right one. I love that so much, and I loved everything these two touched on in this conversation. Um, D Wayne Lukas, trainer, teacher, absolute legend changed the game by paying attention, by adapting, also, by understanding what others missed or were missing. This conversation with D Wayne
[00:06:12] and Jena was recorded, as I said before, the 2024 Preakness, and what you're gonna hear is a mix of reverence, of humor, of deep mutual respect between two trailblazers at very different times. It feels even more meaningful now that D Wayne is no longer with us, and I am so honored to be able to share this moment with you.
[00:06:34] You know, any opportunity, I think at any point to sit down with the two of you would be really cool. But the significance of this weekend for both of you makes this really special, right? Because you are, you're both such innovators though also, right? I mean. Jena becoming the first female trainer to win a triple Crown race.
[00:06:52] Um, Mr. Lukas creating basically the model that everyone trains under. And that's
[00:06:59] D Wayne: complimentary. I don't know about that.
[00:07:01] Lindsay: Well, you walk by these barns and you can see it. Right? And um, and I mean the, you know, winning your first Preakness in 11 years. So I wanna start there with both of you and Jena, I'm gonna start with you.
[00:07:12] What went through your mind when you were watching Wayne win the Preakness?
[00:07:18] Jena: Get it done. Yes. You know, obviously I have a soft spot with Airgate, with our journey with Ark Angelo, but we were just talking about this a second ago. The minute I saw him loping along on the lead there, I'm like, it's done. But I think you know, more than anything, not that we deserve anything.
[00:07:34] Everything we get from these horses is such a gift. But what Wayne has given to this industry and his sacrifice for his life, and just giving of this community and of these horses. To watch it happen at this point of his career, it's like, yes. Like thank you. You guys got it right up there. Like he is deserving of it.
[00:07:55] And so just watching the journey and like you said, you know's there's 2,500 people that get to enjoy what that means. Like
[00:08:02] Lindsay: With the My Racehorse syndicate. Yeah. Right?
[00:08:04] D Wayne: It's very complimentary of you to say that. I, um, I think that, uh, in order to get where we've gotten, uh, well,
[00:08:13] Jena: That's complimentary. Yeah.
[00:08:14] Because I'm still swimming. You've gotta…
[00:08:16] D Wayne: you, well, you, you, you have to make a total commitment. You just have to, you, everything becomes secondary to what you're trying to accomplish. And, uh, there's something about the horse industry that is different than the other employment. I, you know, I coached 10 years.
[00:08:32] I understand that part of, uh, my life, but. When you get involved with this, you bond and get so intense and so involved that everything else becomes secondary: uh, marriages, relationships, uh, deadlines to do something for yourself, all go out the window. Mm-hmm.
[00:08:55] Lindsay: So what was it like for you getting that win?
[00:08:59] D Wayne: Well, I'd already got to the point where I, I felt very confident on that one, that we, I was very cocky, confident that we were gonna beat him. And that's kind of my nature anyhow. But the, uh, the coach, the thing that, that I, uh, I had a, a very strong clientele with me that owned the other horse. Just Steel.
[00:09:21] Mm-hmm. So when you run two like that, you gotta be a little bit careful. I've never been one to jump in the air and throw my fist in the air, salute the American flag, hug and kiss somebody, praise apple pie. I, I never, uh, do that. So standing there between them, I was really happy when, uh, John Bellinger, the other man walked over and started hugging a few of them because I thought, this is, this is good because I don't have to, you know, he doesn't have to, he got it covered for him.
[00:09:53] Yeah, he's covering for me. But, uh, to, to get that many people happy that I thought I was at a football, uh, pep rally. Really. It was... I've been on a cattle drive was more organized than that. I mean, it was, it was it, they were pouring in there and I know they had drawn lots to see who could, you know, go in there and the actual winner circle, but the, the, that long lane there, everybody else, I, they thought, well, we're entitled to go and watch it, you know, so here they come.
[00:10:24] Actually, it ended up to being, they were cheering and hugging and it is interesting, the most profound comment that happened right after it. I was standing there waiting to go up, and a, an elderly woman was crying. And she said, I've wanted to own a horse all my life. I never dreamed I would own the Belmont.
[00:10:50] Mm-hmm. The, uh, Preakness winner. Mm-hmm. She says, I thought lady, you're one of 2,740 people. But she said, I never thought I would win the Preakness. You know?
[00:11:03] Lindsay: But I mean, where does that land for you though? Because also that is an opportunity of a lifetime that you are giving to these people.
[00:11:13] D Wayne: It might be better for Jena than me.
[00:11:15] I'm, you know, I'm on, I'm at the quarter pole and, uh, her career is mm-hmm. Flourishing right in front of her. I think that these, uh, multiple ownerships and everything are gonna benefit, uh, someone her age. Mm-hmm. On, on the upward climb. I quit working on my resume a few years ago. I don't worry about it anymore.
[00:11:40] Um, I, as a gentleman say, I used to dress up and wear a tie every time. Now I just saddle the damn thing. But the, uh, I think these multiple ownerships are gonna help the younger people that are on the upswing, like she is.
[00:11:55] Lindsay: I did wanna ask you about the line of trainers that came to congratulate you after that win.
[00:12:02] I mean, that, I would imagine that that was pretty unique and special. That
[00:12:07] D Wayne: was special for, for Bob Beford to walk across the muddy track.
[00:12:11] Jena: Got his shoes dirty?
[00:12:12] D Wayne: Yeah, no. And come across there and gimme a handshake and a big hug. I mean, that, that was totally outta character for him. I think he, although he's been a tremendous, uh, supporter of me.
[00:12:25] And I have of him. But, uh, you know, it, it, what happened was the, the competition, the other trainers right down the line were genuinely, I think, uh, happy and congratulated me and were happy for me and a couple of 'em even made the comment that if I couldn't win it. I'm glad he did, which kinda surprised me because as Jena would tell you
[00:12:49] Jena: step over you for
[00:12:50] D Wayne: 40, for 40 years here we were kicking ass, and you don't always, uh, win everybody over when you're beating them all the time.
[00:12:58] Jena: That's a fair statement. And that would probably be my biggest surprise through my journey thus far as the genuine support and kindness from other horsemen in an industry. Um, I don't care what industry you're in, when you're at the top, you know, it's lonely at the top. That expression is there for a reason.
[00:13:13] Um, and so I, I felt similarly with through our journey with Arc Angela, that people were actually genuine. And for me it's like, I want, I want you to be who you are today, who you were to me yesterday. I don't want you to be happy for me today because we did something that was unique or different and special.
[00:13:31] If, if, if you don't like me, that's fine. We're good. But be, be genuine to me today as you were to me yesterday. And so to have people reach out and to genuinely congratulate or be happy, you know, that something happened that wasn't about them, I thought was special.
[00:13:47] D Wayne: I think you gotta add one thing though.
[00:13:49] You did something that was special and it was out, out of the box. You, you, uh, accomplished something that, uh, so many of the men and the world trainers were trying to do. And here you just slip right in there and not only do you beat 'em. You make 'em like it. And, uh, that's, that's cute. Think that, uh, that was, uh, that as far as congratulations and everything, I think it was genuine because all the male trainers, the ones that were
[00:14:24] stepped back and said, damn, that she beat us, you know? Mm-hmm. And, uh, they were very appreciative of the effort and what you accomplished.
[00:14:33] Lindsay: Thank you. What was your take watching that happen? What did you think when you saw Jena win the Belmont with Arcangelo? When
[00:14:40] Jena: Did you see me? What did you think when I just didn't screw it up?
[00:14:43] Right? Yeah. Because most of the time you just have to not screw it up.
[00:14:45] D Wayne: Yeah. I would, I was, uh, I, I was analyzing it a little bit. I thought, well, where do we go from here? You know? Mm-hmm. Because, uh, you know, it was a breakthrough deal.
[00:14:59] Jena: what did you think about me bypassing the preps and coming straight to the traverse?
[00:15:03] D Wayne: I thought you were a little bit conservative. I thought I bypassing his in, in my vocabulary. And, um, but to your credit, I always say that you can't make a generalization... That back in two weeks or back in three weeks, is a, a general thing you can say about all horses. You, you have to ask the next question, well, what about the one I'm dealing with, what the horse in front of me is the one that you have to make that judgment on?
[00:15:35] That's what we get paid for. To read into what the horse needs or doesn't need. If you skipped it without even knowing, I would have to say that you felt that, that he needed that and that you would be better in the Belmont, you know? And, uh, my horse, I would've liked to run him last Saturday, Seize the Grey, would've he has come out of it.
[00:15:58] I thought I had him dead fit in the uh. Uh, pat Day Mile and I mm-hmm. He ran very well, but I thought, well, we're really in great shape for the Preakness, but I have now found out that in looking at him and reading him that I have no, I don't have any reservation of running him back in three weeks. I think he'll run huge.
[00:16:17] Jena: They just seem to thrive. I think maybe if there's any connection between, obviously the Arcangelo and the Seize the Grey kind of mm-hmm. That Arrogate under underlying just seems to be, they just keep building.
[00:16:28] D Wayne: Oh boy. That Arrogate thing too. When we lost him, we, we lost...
[00:16:33] Jena: yeah.
[00:16:34] Lindsay: Arrogate is the father of both Arcangelo and Seize the Grey.
[00:16:39] Jena: Yeah, right. There's just an interesting stamina and cruising speed that I think we see in these two colts.
[00:16:45] D Wayne: I think that the efficiency of motion that she's talking about is the key to both your horse and mine. Um. I've got a couple aptitudes that I think watch out because they have that same movement.
[00:16:59] Yeah. It was effortless to watch her horse on film. Mm-hmm. To do that. I mean he, and it really seized the gray after the Preakness was circling the track. 'cause we couldn't get to the winner circle with all the people. And by the time he got in there, I'm, we as trainers, were always wondering how did he pull up, what is he, is he blowing rubber legged?
[00:17:21] What is he? Yeah. He was just standing there like, uh, well what's next? What's next? Should we do it again or, I'm ready.
[00:17:27] Jena: Yeah. And that's, I can definitely appreciate that with Ganja, obviously. Yes. Just like Wayne said, we know you're watching him gallop out. All the circuses happening around us. But I think horsemen are always staring at the horse.
[00:17:39] Where are we, where are we pulling? And there's some footage even after the Belmont where I'm literally scanning the track looking for my horse. 'cause that's honestly what I care about. Yeah.
[00:17:48] D Wayne: After that first shock of watching it, okay,
[00:17:50] Jena: We got it done. Okay, where's my horse? Are we good? Is everything okay?
[00:17:52] How are they meaning? Like, how is, how is he doing in that moment? None of this happens without that. And that is what our, you know what? We fall asleep thinking about what we wake up thinking about. I know it's a huge family adjustment, you know, for everyone around. You wake up and you're just going and it's like, yeah.
[00:18:08] 'cause we have all that going on in the background. Yeah. And,
[00:18:10] D Wayne: and we get analytical. Like, uh, when we were on that, um, run of I think six in a row Yeah. Of triple crown races, A, B, C came to me and, uh, they said, could you. Uh, we're gonna have a camera on it today. Would you just show a little emotion? They said, just doing this, they said, could you just hug somebody or God throw your fist in the air?
[00:18:34] They asked, they asked you
[00:18:35] Jena: to be somebody you're not. Yeah. They
[00:18:36] D Wayne: asked you. They wanted me to. Sure. And what you say to the, they said, if you win, just, you know, do something, look happy. Don't just look there and go,
[00:18:46] Lindsay: That's great. What'd you say to them? I said, no. Yeah. I said,
[00:18:51] D Wayne: you get, I said, if you wanted Robert Redford, you should have hired him. I said, you get me.
[00:18:55] Lindsay: You need to say, you get what you get. You don't get upset. That's it. Um, I, I also think that there's a similarity, um, between the way that you both approach the people that work with you, that work for you. Right. And I, I think Jaime is a great example of that too. Your decision to stick with Jaime as the jockey and the Preakness.
[00:19:16] Can you talk a little bit about like what. What that means to you, the people part of all of this.
[00:19:21] D Wayne: Well, I think the coach comes out at me daily. I, um, the, the, you know, Jaime, Keith, Aspen, similar, both too tall. We should cut a foot off of both of them. They're too tall to be good. They have to, they have to starve themselves to do their, the dream of mm-hmm.
[00:19:38] You know, being it, so you, you, they come and they sit down and, you know, they're articulate and they're solid and they're good people. And, uh, the coach in me thinks all the time, let's help 'em, you know. And my whole career, I've, uh, tried to continue to teach, but once you're a teacher, you're always a teacher.
[00:20:01] I thought Jaime gave, uh, off the right vibes for me that he would be okay. I wrote him here last year. He won, and, uh, I liked him immensely. I thought he was smart. I went to, uh, Churchill and Keith Eron again, almost a Cologne, walks up and says he is gonna start his career. And so we got him off to a stakes win and so forth.
[00:20:26] So I think that comes from that background. I, I like to help those that are trying to help themselves,
[00:20:33] Jena: That part. Mm-hmm. Because we, I think both have helped people or wanted to grow people that, um, don't want it for themselves. Mm-hmm. So when you find the ones that are willing to do that extra, that do the dirty work, that get in there and want it for themselves, you can't want something more for them than they want it for themselves.
[00:20:53] And I know I've invested time and resources and emotional energy into people that you see it in them, but they don't have it and they don't want it like that. And so as, as I've gotten older, I've learned to not, you know, dump into that person anymore and just say, okay, they wanna be a toll booth collector, that's fine.
[00:21:10] Just go, you go be the best toll booth collector you can be. Mm-hmm. It's not gonna work for me for the long haul because I wanna bring that guy along. I mean, Giovanni, Arcangelo's groomer, started with me as a hot walker that had never been around horses and he just had the opportunity to have, you know, the champion three-year-old.
[00:21:28] So to watch his journey, that's what it's, for me, it's about the journey for the people around me and around the team because of their commitment and their deserving of this. And so to watch Fiona, my assistant, have that and her husband, you know, to watch them be able to have that journey and that experience, and we happen to be able to provide that platform for them, that is so much more gratifying for me to watch people live their dream and live their best life.
[00:21:52] And we get to do that with these horses. That's the gift of, for me, what we do.
[00:21:59] D Wayne: So, well put, I told Jaime, I said, I'm gonna make you better than you wanna be. He said, what? Oh,
[00:22:04] Jena: that's so good.
[00:22:05] D Wayne: I said, I'm gonna make you, if you hang around me. Yeah. I'm gonna make you better than you wanna be.
[00:22:12] Jena: I'll invest in
[00:22:13] Lindsay: you.
[00:22:13] D Wayne: Yeah.
[00:22:13] Jena: But you gotta, you gotta work hard at it.
[00:22:16] Lindsay: Yeah. That's exactly what George Michael used to say to me. My boss. I was saying my boss used to do interviews 'cause he would cover horse racing in sports. But that, those types of things, that's the, the tone of a great leader too. And Jena was almost a pro athlete also.
[00:22:31] She's a, a golfer, an amazing golfer. So that's also, I think, an interesting connection that plays into that whole thing. Was that,
[00:22:37] Jena: yeah, I was pretty good at it. I took it up late in life. well,
[00:22:39] D Wayne: you know what, there's a connection here in the chair. My brother,
[00:22:44] Jena: our butts on the chair. It's our connection.
[00:22:48] D Wayne: My brother is in the NCAA Hall of Fame as a golfer coach.
[00:22:54] He had 27 all Americans. Wow. He, you wouldn't think that's coming from a little dairy town up in Wisconsin, but he, he's in the Hall of Fame as a golfer and my only grandson, Jeff's son. Yep. Married the gal Brady. Right. That is way up in the PGA. That's awesome. She, they had the PGA uh, open the other day.
[00:23:15] Yeah. Next to our house down there. And, but she's, uh, works for the PGA, so they have one grand, we have one grandchild now, and, uh,
[00:23:26] Jena: great-grandchild.
[00:23:27] D Wayne: Yeah. Great. And, uh, Brady had him, was holding him the other day Ah, and was taking his arm and going like this, and she interrupted and said, no, this I know. It's this, it's this.
[00:23:45] Lindsay: Oh my. How are they doing? What is it like for you to have them around this.
[00:23:50] D Wayne: Grandchildren. Great grandchildren. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just, I can't wait. And
[00:23:53] Lindsay: also Brady, you know? Yeah.
[00:23:54] D Wayne: Well, Brady, we've skipped a gen generation to, we're close. Mm-hmm. Brady I think looks at Laurie and I like, uh, you know, we're the, his immediate parents.
[00:24:06] We are, Brady and I are very close. The grandchildren are new ex great-grandchildren. A new experience for me. I, I, uh, Kelly, the only granddaughter we have is, uh, as a boy too. And they were three weeks apart. They look so much. I, I think we gotta be careful. Don't dress 'em alike. 'cause we'll start. Can we just put one and one stretcher?
[00:24:31] They don't have, they, they don't have a lip tattoo, so we can't tell which ones we're gonna get bibs
[00:24:35] Jena: that say one and one a then we can have 'em separated.
[00:24:38] D Wayne: But, uh, I can't wait till they're big enough to get on a pony. Mm-hmm.
[00:24:43] Jena: I don't know if you know this, um. And one thing I've always been really careful about and it's, it's something I'm big on.
[00:24:49] I hate labels. Um, you know, I am who I am. Don't try and put me in a box for your comfort. And so my introduction, obviously in the thoroughbred side of things was at Padua and I did have the opportunity to know Jeff. And so to have that exposure to your program and to, you know, this industry through, and like Lindsay said previously, you were the first one to basically make it, this is how it needs to be.
[00:25:18] This is the standard it needs to be, it should be the same at whatever one of my operations you go to. This is my program and this is what I expect of you. And so I had had a high level of show horse competition, but my exposure to the thoroughbred world was through your, what you had built. Then to be able, interesting to meet Jeff, you know, obviously after his incident had happened was
[00:25:38] D Wayne: a stage of his life that you should have known him before.
[00:25:41] Jena: He was intense. Yeah, I've heard a lot of stories. Stories. Oh yeah. But he was a hell of a horseman and he obviously got that from somewhere. And so that's something where everyone, everyone, when they learned that my exposure to the thoroughbred world was three year program. Oh, so you worked for Wayne. I said, I promise you Wayne does not remember me on a horse.
[00:25:58] I've had you a stable 20 plus years ago. I was good, but it wasn't that good. But your, um, your expectation of the program you ran and run has created a lot of Hall of Fame production. Not even just from Top or Kieran or we can go down the list, but being that coach that. Put that out to these people. And it was, there was, I tell people all the time, there's a lot of good things and bad things that I learned from the program.
[00:26:26] Yeah. You know, because you can't just do it one way. And how you've evolved and learned and shifted things as you've gotten older. But having expectation and expecting, um, excellence and exceptionalism, um, is okay. And I think that's where we get into trouble of thinking. We can dumb it down for people and it doesn't work.
[00:26:45] D Wayne: I know it does not work. Uh, I always tell those people that, uh, came to me, most of 'em will come and they'll sit where you're sitting. They'll say, I, I'm so glad it'd be part of it. I'm gonna do this. I'll work, I'll clean stalls, I'll walk, I'll stay at the barn all day and everything. And I say, whoa, just stop right there.
[00:27:08] We're gonna test that. That's a given. But here's what I want you to understand. If I commit to you and try to make you better than you wanna be. You fail. Say you don't live up to what you're talking about here. I have put two years in you or so, and you've wasted my time because I'm gonna get rid of you and you'll be bagging groceries at the local grocery store.
[00:27:39] I said, if so, don't think that it's that you're gonna do all these things and it's gonna be wonderful because I'm gonna make a commitment too.
[00:27:47] Jena: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:47] D Wayne: And it's a two-way story.
[00:27:49] Jena: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:51] D Wayne: So stop right there and we'll see how this turns out.
[00:27:54] Jena: Yeah. It's an action, right? Words are easy. Mm-hmm. And I live my life this way.
[00:27:58] And I think sometimes it drives some of the people around me that maybe aren't in the horses, but I'm, I'm an action driven person. Don't tell me you're gonna do something. Words are cheap. Show me, show me, show me in your actions. Yes. Show up. Be there and show. And do what you're saying you do. 'cause it's a, for words are procrastination.
[00:28:15] Yeah. Right. I'm gonna do this. If there's an ING there, I'm out. Do it. Don't tell me you're going to do it. Do it. And then when I see her doing it, then we'll talk more.
[00:28:25] D Wayne: Don't you think it's easy to determine why she's so successful just sitting here listening to this?
[00:28:31] Lindsay: Well, yeah, and frankly it's kind of the same as talking to you, right?
[00:28:34] Well
[00:28:34] D Wayne: she, she's hitting a lot of the right boxes.
[00:28:39] Jena: Well, I'm just trying to not piss people off.
[00:28:43] D Wayne: Oh, I piss them off.
[00:28:44] Jena: I dunno,
[00:28:45] Lindsay: the longevity, I don't worry about that. But speaking of the longevity that Jena is clearly going to have, I love that you guys think, I mean like, do this for like longevity. Like I already feel like, I'm like, oh my God.
[00:28:55] Well, kidding. Well, you know, the fact that, and I know you've been asked this a lot, Wayne, but you know, the first Preakness win in in 1980, right? And then 44 years later, um, like how have you done it? How have you continued yourself to evolve and stay relevant and still be... be winning, you know, and also what, what did that part of it mean to you besides the
[00:29:19] Jena: horses and owners?
[00:29:19] Yes. Because that's the easy answer. Yes.
[00:29:22] D Wayne: The, uh, the thing that I always tell people is if you have a passion for it, you eliminate all the excuses. If you have a passion for your job or the cameraman has one for his job, you eliminate the excuses. You'll go without lunch. You'll drive, you know, half a day to get somewhere.
[00:29:42] You'll go without sleep. You will, uh, eliminate any social event that you might normally go to. You it with passion, you eliminate all the excuses and you start to get focused and you start to get focused to a point where maybe it isn't all good, but it does carry you to a level that you know, you are hoping to get to.
[00:30:07] Mm-hmm. But that's the difference. If I would lose the passion, it. Uh, I've been here 44 years looking across that shed row over there. And, uh, if I were to lose that, that passion of weight and being excited about that horse, that happens to be this one, this current one, but any of the others, uh, I would've been gone a long time ago.
[00:30:32] I had a chance in, uh, in 70, maybe 76, to really change my coaching career to the point where I think I would've ended up as a head coach at Michigan. But, uh, I chose to stay with the horses because Thank you. I felt it was my calling. Thank you. It was what I should do.
[00:30:54] Jena: Mm-hmm. Thank you for doing that. Wow.
[00:30:57] We find, we find excuses to make it happen, right? Like, I think Oh yeah. Other people. Exactly what he's saying. Like they'll find, oh, I can't do that. It's gonna be, I don't wanna drive that far. We drive eight hours to watch him race for a minute and however many seconds. There's no logic in that. Mm-hmm. Why do you do, it's dumb.
[00:31:15] It's literally dumb. Why did you just travel for 12 hours or across the globe for that for a minute and whatever. I, I got, I got no answer. Like, because there is no logic past the passion about doing it. It's, you know,
[00:31:27] D Wayne: why does an 88-year-old man get in a truck and drive 15 hours to get his horse here?
[00:31:32] Yeah. It'd be easy. They fly here, you know,
[00:31:35] Jena: they do. Yeah. They do
[00:31:36] D Wayne: fly here and they, uh, the truck driver doesn't give a damn time with them or not, but I'm sitting right next to him because I feel like that is, uh, where feels right, where I should be, and I'm gonna make sure there's no trouble, nothing go wrong.
[00:31:49] Lindsay: And what, and that's why that's the answer. Yeah.
[00:31:51] D Wayne: Is yeah. Try that sometime. Ride 15 hours in a heavy truck and see how you feel. You don't have to be 88; you'll feel like hell.
[00:32:01] Lindsay: But you're not back with the horse, not in the back, in the front. Right, right. Yeah. The air. It's not much better up there. Yeah, I hear you.
[00:32:09] So, so what, to you, what was the significance of, of getting that one of this, this Preakness win that you'd got? What did it actually symbolize to you?
[00:32:20] D Wayne: Again, it got back to, uh, what Gina's talking about. It got back to, uh, uh, being able to, uh, give all those people the mm-hmm. I, that was my seventh one, and I don't say that I, I mean they're
[00:32:35] Jena: special.
[00:32:35] They all have a different Yeah. Way that they rank. Yeah.
[00:32:37] D Wayne: Every one of 'em is special for some reason or another. So if you've won seven of them, and I'd say that, uh, with, I don't wanna be real. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Obnoxious about it, but. You immediately start thinking about, boy, look what's happening here. They're hugging and crying and everything.
[00:32:54] What the hell is this all about? You know? And uh, I was uh, uh, kind of blown away by the reaction, but personally mm-hmm. Uh, it's another deal on the, my resume, but I quit working on my resume years ago.
[00:33:09] Jena: I had talked to Lindsay about this previously and I, I have a feeling this might resonate similarly with you for me, because it's more meaningful for the people and the this and the that.
[00:33:18] There are some people that every win, like, I don't have another way to word this. Like they get off on the win. Ah, I got another win. Yeah. But it's, I don't have that. I like, if we're doing everything that we're supposed to do and the horses are placed right, and they're running their best race and they're getting their trip, yes.
[00:33:37] I expect to win that spot. We won it, we did our job, but it doesn't move the day-to-day needle.
[00:33:43] D Wayne: Great. Great comment. Very true.
[00:33:47] Jena: And I think that's because this industry, I said, this industry gives zero craps about your feelings.
[00:33:53] D Wayne: Zero. Not only that, but you win one like that. Believe it or not, you say, where's the condition book?
[00:33:58] Where's the next one? Yeah,
[00:33:59] Jena: that's fair. Even
[00:34:00] D Wayne: if you win one on Thursday afternoon, where
[00:34:03] Jena: am I going next? And it's not because you wanna, of course.
[00:34:05] D Wayne: Yeah. He hasn't even got outta the winner circle. And your mind's saying, I wonder if he'll be eligible for that one. Uh, three weeks from now,
[00:34:12] Lindsay: He's right. And what drives that?
[00:34:13] Is it the wanting to do the job the best way, or is it the one to be back in that victory circles? It's
[00:34:20] D Wayne: that it's a competitive spirit. Yeah. We're we're competitive to a fault.
[00:34:25] Lindsay: Yes. Yes.
[00:34:26] D Wayne: About everything. Everything. That's why I speed all the time. I wanna beat the car in front of me all the time. I wanna beat the GPS
[00:34:33] Jena: if that GPS says I'm getting there at six 15.
[00:34:35] Yeah, I'm getting there at least six 14, if not six 10. Yeah,
[00:34:39] D Wayne: I'm driving on the freeway and the guy's going 80, I gotta go 85. I gotta get ahead of him.
[00:34:44] Jena: Do you get a lot of speeding tickets? Let's not talk about that on cameras, ma'am. Wow.
[00:34:51] D Wayne: Do I ever do I was friends with the governor. Thank God
[00:34:56] Lindsay: sir. Let's talk about the situation. What about when it, when it comes to, and I think you know, Mr. Lukas was saying that, ask you about what, that, the syndicate situation and bringing those fans along, talking about the sport and evolving and, and the need for it to evolve.
[00:35:13] Mm-hmm. What do you think when you look ahead at the landscape?
[00:35:16] Jena: There? There's a time, there's often that I'm very envious of the time that Wayne was able to do his career. Because I'm envious that you have a flip phone, by the way. What is that like? No social media, right? Right. We didn't have social, we didn't have, and we never had an opinion, but it didn't make it really pass their lips to the people they were talking to immediately with them.
[00:35:38] And so you've asked me this previously, like coming into the big weeks and stuff. How do I manage it? I have to turn all the white noise down because it's so much. Exactly. And so, you know, finding other things to have your quiet time is very important. Um, you know, people, the better you do, the more they want to take.
[00:35:56] And so you can only give emotionally so much, whether you're a man or a woman. And so it's, you've gotta find those quiet times and those, those areas to, to recharge. But the syndicates are necessary. And the reason it's necessary is because society has changed. Um, we don't have the titans of ownership like we used to.
[00:36:14] That's
[00:36:15] D Wayne: right. We're these horses aren't affordable to very many people, correct?
[00:36:18] Jena: Mm-hmm. Correct. And that's just a landscape change in, in the world. And so recognizing that that's just how the world is now, you know, to instead of us sitting here and saying, as an industry and the, the haters of our industry saying, it's a dying thing.
[00:36:32] No one wants to be around it, da da da. It's us making it relatable and accessible to people that are curious. Okay, I can spend a hundred bucks or 200 bucks and, and learn more about this. And maybe that converts them to bigger ownership percentage or more involvement. And then they have five friends that are curious to what they're doing and that those five friends have another few friends.
[00:36:52] And so it, that's the part of it that while I appreciate there are traditionalists that don't like the idea of the syndicate and don't, oh, you don't really own that horse. You own a hair. Fine. You are allowed to feel that way, but it doesn't diminish what these people in this section of people are getting out of this.
[00:37:11] And it doesn't have to be for everybody. I'm not for everybody. He's not for everybody. And that is completely fine. Mm-hmm. It's just us learning this new landscape and how we get communicated to these people and making sure that they're having the best possible experience and exposure to this. And we are learning this on the fly.
[00:37:29] My race horse is figuring it out. Centennial does this. I never thought
[00:37:32] D Wayne: I would, uh. Get, I didn't think I would take, I had reservation about taking this horse, you know, when they approached me, I, first of all, I, I, I didn't know what he was, what, you know, again, he was an irrigators, really let me out. But, but I, uh, I would, I had great reservations.
[00:37:51] I thought, uh, I thought there was 500 owners or 200. I didn't know. When they started telling me there were over 2000, I thought, oh geez, where in the hell is this gonna go? Because, you know, that could get outta control. But they do a remarkable job of letting the people enjoy it and don't get in, uh, you know, your backyard too much.
[00:38:12] Jena: Our biggest challenge as a trainer, not to speak for you, but I'll be shocked if you don't agree, is time management with owners, because everyone is deservative of the time and updates and knowing what's going on. Mm-hmm. And the idea that you have 2,500 people. There's no way I could update all those people of what's going on.
[00:38:29] And so we only have so much to give and keeping everyone updated about everything else that's happening in the barn and how their horses are training or what races you're going to, or here's an update, or we have to talk about this situation. That's the biggest time suck is dealing with the people.
[00:38:44] D Wayne: I, um, 40 years ago I started going through the crowd or I'd have Laurie or whatever go through the crowd and just find a child, 6, 7, 8, 5 years old and just walk out to perfect strangers and say, look, come on, we're gonna go in the winter circle with this horse.
[00:39:03] Always
[00:39:04] Jena: has.
[00:39:04] D Wayne: And I took every race I have now, I've won over four or 5,000, uh, races now, so that's 5,000 times I've taken a child to the, the winner circle. Oh my God. I, they, they have an unbelievable experience in most cases, and I tell the parents. Laurie will take 'em back and say, be sure and tell 'em that if they wait 20 minutes they can go because of digital cameras, they can go get the picture now and it's, uh, on my account, you know, and, uh, most of 'em go get it and then try to find me and get it signed, you know?
[00:39:39] Yeah.
[00:39:39] Jena: But
[00:39:40] D Wayne: we, if we, if there's not a small child in our picture, it's because none of 'em are in the grandstand. We find them and uh, Laurie might say There's one down by the eighth pole. I said, well go get 'em, you know?
[00:39:53] Jena: Oh my gosh. And the irony is the first time my, I was up here for a one picture for my grandparents, they wouldn't let me in the one picture.
[00:40:00] Really? And there's a picture of me, the horse's name was CLM Rose. She won and I am crying because I couldn't get out there. 'cause it was when they were still doing something in the dirt. Yeah. They had the ring and the lime. I'm standing on the wall like with bloodshot red eyes because Yeah. That's So anyways, I love that.
[00:40:17] That's the irony.
[00:40:18] Lindsay: Why was that so important to you?
[00:40:20] D Wayne: Because I, I, uh, grew up as a kid dreaming, uh, you know, trying to win little races at the county fair and everything. And I, I, I knew the experience was special and so I thought, you know, how easy is that? I tried to talk Bedford into it and some other guys, they don't do it.
[00:40:39] You know, it's so easy. What the hell? You just grab a kid and come in and you take him to his parents, shake hands and mm-hmm.
[00:40:46] Jena: But the optics, so I think life, you gotta hear the so impressionable, I'm sorry, is right. As a child, how we see and absorb things is so much bigger than maybe what it is to an adult.
[00:40:58] Yes. So to have a child have an opportunity to do that oh boy, is very impressionable and it stays with them. Does it ever forever? Mm-hmm.
[00:41:08] D Wayne: They, they get the reming and shaken and they do say, oh my God, he is so big. You know? But the, the, the beautiful thing is I have letters. I get, or I'll be at the Kentucky Derby and a guy will walk up and he'll say, remember me?
[00:41:22] And I'll say, no, I don't. He said, well, you probably wouldn't. He said, when I was nine years old, you took me to the winner circle and I'm a, a lawyer now. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I have that picture of you and I when I was a kid on the wall. That's what matters. Amazing. I still haven't, and he'll say, do you remember what you told me?
[00:41:42] And I'll say, no, what'd I tell you? And he, he said, you told me not to talk to any girls and not to talk to any strange girls. And remember, all girls are strange,
[00:41:55] Jena: but it, it leaves a forever mark for people. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, and for young, for young people. And you've asked me like, what has this journey meant for me?
[00:42:02] And, and I, I said it, it's a gift in that way to have the opportunity to tell people about what we do and why we do it. And that if it... To convey that and to give them something to look through is a gift. And these horses give us that gift to make a change. And to make an opportunity like that and to make an impression upon someone for the rest of their lives is a gift.
[00:42:27] Yep. Not everyone has that opportunity. And so that's where I jokingly say like, I don't wanna screw that up, but it means so much. And the horse gives us that little platform to make a change. You know, what you said, you know, stuck with me and, and I've, you know, I hear it and, and it's like, wow, okay. I didn't realize.
[00:42:47] Thank you for that. And so those are the gifts that are in return for me,
[00:42:51] D Wayne: for sure, for both of us.
[00:42:52] Lindsay: And I love the way you talk about that with, with your horses too. The horses are the gift. And I think the way that both of you. Um, handle, manage your horses is similar too. Right? And it's not, not, I mean, I'm, and I'm not saying anything negative about any trainers, but it's a little bit different.
[00:43:08] You're much, am I right to say that you're, you're very horse focused, very hands-on, very horse focused.
[00:43:13] D Wayne: If you're successful, you are. Mm-hmm. Without naming names, I think that anybody that's successful doing this is damn sure. Hands on.
[00:43:21] Jena: Mm-hmm. I've, I've said more 'cause everyone, of course. Oh, with having success, you must have all these horses down.
[00:43:27] Like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Time out. I don't wanna be a horse manager. I wanna be a horse person. And when your numbers get too big and you, you went through this, through your career. Some, you had great horsemen that worked for you. Yeah.
[00:43:38] D Wayne: Well I, that's what I, that's how we changed the game right there by I. Got that from my coaching background that I, I knew that I needed a tight end coach, a linebacker coach, a quarterback coach.
[00:43:55] I couldn't have those in three divisions. But here was my thought process. I watched when I came over from the quarter horses, Charlie Winningham, la these greats would've 20 horses at Santa Anita, but they were only getting a lot of production from maybe half of them, and the other half were pretty much nowhere.
[00:44:20] So I, I said to my son, what we're gonna do is we're gonna make every horse productive. So we'll decide which ones can run at Santa Anita. If they can't compete at Santa Anita, we'll take the next four and put 'em in Monmouth Park and we'll take, uh, uh, another four or five that are really good at Belmont.
[00:44:42] So we started putting those divisions. But to do that. I had to have Mark, ick, Todd, Cher, Dallas, Stewart, Mike Maker, George Weaver, chairman Coffin,
[00:44:51] Jena: you
[00:44:51] D Wayne: know?
[00:44:52] Jena: Yep. Because he didn't just go get assistant coaches that were average. Mm-hmm.
[00:44:58] D Wayne: No, I He expected exceptionalism from them.
[00:45:01] Jena: I, I, he was, he was tough. And did it explain that he wasn't, he wasn't like a soft shoulder.
[00:45:08] Oh. Are you having a bad day? It was, suck it up. Butter. We got things to
[00:45:11] D Wayne: do. Let's go. You're having a bad day. I'll kick your ass right out front. I'll make it even better.
[00:45:16] Jena: Yeah. So mean, that's, and how
[00:45:17] D Wayne: was that
[00:45:18] Lindsay: received? Just
[00:45:19] Jena: look at their careers like a student to your
[00:45:20] D Wayne: coach.
[00:45:20] Lindsay: Right. Look at their
[00:45:21] Jena: careers. How was it received?
[00:45:22] Like that's how it was received. The ones that you're gonna get it done, there's the, you're gonna done here.
[00:45:26] D Wayne: Mm-hmm. There's some, there's, we named a bunch of 'em right there, but there's a bunch of 'em that are bagging groceries somewhere too. That they,
[00:45:33] Jena: and that's okay. Didn't
[00:45:34] D Wayne: make it. Yeah.
[00:45:36] Jena: That's okay.
[00:45:36] D Wayne: Not that bagging groceries isn't a very good profession.
[00:45:39] Jena: You have to bag 'em yourself now. I mean, so I guess we're all bagging groceries now. The irony.
[00:45:44] Lindsay: So, but that's, so that's, you had your process and here, here was your game plan. Did it, was it, did it just work like from, or were there hiccups along the way, or it just, it worked
[00:45:56] D Wayne: because of my son,
[00:45:58] Lindsay: Jeff.
[00:45:59] D Wayne: It, it, I probably couldn't have, uh, didn't agree.
[00:46:04] I think I, he was so, uh, he was intense, liked me intense and everything. And uh, like if you go interview Todd Cher, Todd's gonna say he learned more from Jeff than he learned from me because he was right under Jeff. And Jeff was very, very hard also. So. I, I was very, very much hands-on to all of them, but he was too.
[00:46:29] So we, they got it from both sides. And then when one of them got, uh, good, we gave him more leeway and more leeway and more leeway and uh, uh, I used to force him into certain situations like Todd was down at Gulfstream, for example, and we'd be in the, uh, FLaurieda Derby and the press would call me up and they'd say, what about your derby horse?
[00:46:52] I'd say, how the hell do I know I'm three my a thousand miles away? Ask Todd, you know? Mm-hmm. And force him into taking the interview. Force him to deal with the owner. That's right. I used to tell him in the, in the tack room, I'd say, look, we got a little bad news here today. We got an ankle fracture, so I'm gonna get on the phone.
[00:47:13] I want you to sit here and listen to this. Mm-hmm. And I'm gonna explain what happened. I want you to pick up on how we do it and how I'm gonna explain it. Uh, I'd say I'm gonna give them the bad news and, but I'm gonna enter and go at the end. They'll be very positive. We're gonna be very, the thoughts can be very positive.
[00:47:35] I'm not gonna leave 'em on a downer and I'd say, I want you to listen to this. And I'm, there were things like their personal... uh, I, I always thought as a kid that people were impressed with the script. With your handwriting.
[00:47:51] Jena: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:51] D Wayne: You know, I'd see people write and they'd say, boy, you have beautiful penmanship.
[00:47:55] So without being boastful, I got beautiful penmanship. It
[00:47:59] Jena: does.
[00:48:00] D Wayne: And so I would write on the top of a legal pad. Uh, we are going to run into Belmont steaks, and I'd say write that 50 times and I'll look at it in the morning and we're talking about a 30-year-old kid looking at it, saying, are you serious? I say, yeah, I'm serious.
[00:48:18] Write it. Practice it.
[00:48:21] Jena: Do you feel most of '
[00:48:22] D Wayne: em have really improved?
[00:48:24] Jena: Oh my gosh. Do you feel that because we spend a lifetime reading a silent language, reading a horse, listening to the horses, that it makes us better at reading the room with people?
[00:48:39] D Wayne: Oh, absolutely. I think, I think between my coaching, uh, background and what you're just talking about, absolutely.
[00:48:50] I always thought that, uh, I could put 30 kids on the floor and I could, I could probably pick the best 10 without ever talking to
[00:49:00] Jena: them.
[00:49:00] D Wayne: Yeah, just
[00:49:01] Jena: read the room. Just, yeah, just,
[00:49:02] D Wayne: just let 'em, let 'em shoot around for a little while and I'll tell you which ones I want. But
[00:49:06] Jena: Also in delivering the news to people, you gotta read the room and know how you need to give and how you need to deliver it, because.
[00:49:15] This is a hard business. The pendulum swings both ways. You have the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. And so yeah. I'm gonna call and give you a turd sandwich right now, but it's got really good condiments on it. Yeah. And a great side. So see the bright side, you know
[00:49:28] D Wayne: the, yeah. And, and the message, uh, covers a lot of different industries.
[00:49:34] I, I had the, the privilege, or, or I did it, uh, I, spo did the keynote speech for Microsoft at the, uh, Omni in Atlanta, 1700 executives from all over the world. Now, when this woman got up and started to introduce this horse trainer that's gonna speak to him, you can imagine the reaction of the crowd. Oh, really?
[00:50:06] Yeah. I mean, I, I said to Bill Gates, I said. This is gonna be a tough audience. He said, you'll be fine. This is
[00:50:15] Jena: gonna be a lift. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:50:18] D Wayne: So what happened? Well, I went to the podium. You nailed
[00:50:20] Jena: it. Yeah. Yeah. I,
[00:50:22] D Wayne: I went to the podium and I said, sit up, get your feet on the floor and straighten up your back.
[00:50:27] 'cause what I got to say, you, you can use, I didn't even say good morning.
[00:50:32] Lindsay: So what was your overarching message in that talk?
[00:50:34] D Wayne: Well, I, I talked about, I didn't talk about horses at all. I talked about getting from here to there and how, you know, you know, things that I think were important to do and so forth.
[00:50:48] So, fascinating.
[00:50:49] Lindsay: You, um, you also shared about when you, when you created sort of the way that you do things, Mr. Lukas with the, the barns, the flowers, the suits in the beginning. What went into that thought process? Why? Well,
[00:51:04] D Wayne: I, I wanted, uh, there's two things. First of all, we're gonna spend 18 hours a day at the barn, so why not have it nice.
[00:51:12] Um, the other thing is I wanted, uh, her clients to walk by my barn and say, who the hell is that? Uhhuh? Yeah. Who, who, who runs that up? Because right away you got 'em thinking, well, that's a different deal there. What's his day rate? You know, it's probably the same as yours. Mm-hmm. So, uh,
[00:51:33] Jena: Compel people.
[00:51:34] D Wayne: Yeah. So, so I, I did that.
[00:51:38] The other thing is, uh, the discipline in the barn, uh, when you discipline outside the stall and demand a certain amount of cleanup, polish, whatever, it'll carry over to the effort they put with the horse in the stall. It'll carry over. You are drilling them and teaching them. Uh, I'll give you an example.
[00:52:06] Um, I swung by the barn at Churchill and, uh, just at seven, eight o'clock at night, seven 30, and I glanced at him. One of the horses said, let the hind bandage slip. He probably was stomping flies or something, and it slipped down low. Well, I said to the n man, I said, we gotta change that bandage and reset it.
[00:52:32] He said, I'll get it. I said, no. Oh no. I said, you stay out of there. I said, it's about seven 30. I want you to set your alarm for nine 30 or 10 o'clock. No, no earlier. Then I want you to go upstairs. Get him out of the room. Make him dress, come back down, set the bandage, and then go back to bed. I said he will never leave the barn again with that bandage like
[00:53:00] Jena: that.
[00:53:00] Never
[00:53:02] Lindsay: love it.
[00:53:03] D Wayne: That's the way we think
[00:53:05] Jena: we've gotten soft. Right?
[00:53:07] D Wayne: Yeah. I have soft and a little bit,
[00:53:08] Jena: but the culture in society's gotten a little soft.
[00:53:11] D Wayne: Oh, the whole, are you kidding? Yeah.
[00:53:15] Jena: And so doing that one time, like I don't have children of my uterus, but I'm able to enjoy Manny's children, and it's, it's not a little, come on now.
[00:53:26] Come on now come do it one time. That's inconvenient and one time that I expected here, and it's repeatable when it's okay. Okay. Just don't do it now. Okay. That's enough. Okay. Then it just becomes bigger and then you just start accepting more things that aren't good enough. Yeah. Yeah. So no, get your ass outta bed.
[00:53:46] Do it Right. Are you gonna wear your underwear half hanging off your leg all night? No. You're gonna fix it right away. Fix it, do it right, do it right. Do it right now.
[00:53:55] Lindsay: Yeah. No, there is a lot of value in that. Jena, you, if you're thinking back to the course of this past year, is there one a moment or a memory that stands out to you the most that you feel after winning the Belmont?
[00:54:09] Jena: Watching him win the Preakness.
[00:54:12] D Wayne: Thanks for that.
[00:54:15] Lindsay: How about you, Mr. I think
[00:54:16] D Wayne: that you've already, uh, referred to it. I think, uh, the little exchange I made with those, those fans, my peer group coming mm-hmm. Over to the winner's circle.
[00:54:27] Lindsay: What about over the course of your career? Is there, is there a horse or a memory that to you.
[00:54:33] When you think back means the most? Well,
[00:54:35] D Wayne: I think that hit right on, on that subject. It, every year every horse gives you a different scenario, a different feeling, a different, I have a story after story after story, obviously with the, the, I've been blessed with a lot of nice horses. Uh, you know, it, uh, it's hard to say.
[00:54:58] People say, what is your, your best horse? What was your favorite horse? You know? Mm-hmm. Well, what year are you talking about? You know, when I, I have, you know, different favorites, different times I thought that I, I won the Kentucky Derby four times. They say, well, you had to be happiest with the first one.
[00:55:19] No, the third one was the one that's jumped out because it was for Bill Young who became a dear friend of mine. And, uh, when I was able to share that derby with them, that was the best one. That that one was better than the other three. So it just depends on what year or what time.
[00:55:38] Jena: In my introduction into developing and starting thoroughbreds under his program in Ocala was one of the last kind of several, um, groups of storm cats.
[00:55:53] Yeah. So they would show up from Overbrook orangutans and Storm Cat. The, the, you know, good stallions have traits, and they're repeatable traits. And that's kind of how we know, like if they're gonna be good stallions, if you go and start looking at horse at the sail and this stallion has no rhyme or reason, you know, this stallion kind of stamps in this way.
[00:56:15] It doesn't always have to be a physical thing, but storm cats tend to have, they had a bit, a thicker jowl and they had a really strong personality and they were a little, like, if they had those little things to 'em, they were, if you could channel that for good. They were likely gonna be something in some capacity.
[00:56:31] And so my exposure to the thoroughbred, um, out of the show horse ring for me was into a huge group of storm cats that were,
[00:56:40] D Wayne: and they were tough.
[00:56:41] Jena: They were tough. And they, but they taught you to ask questions differently. Yeah.
[00:56:46] D Wayne: Every horse teaches, yeah, they're all teaching every day. The what we get paid to do is read their personalities, if you want, call it that, and, uh, determine where they need to be straightened out, where they need to be loved, where they need to be pushed forward, backed up on.
[00:57:07] That's what we get paid to do. And the ones that do it, the best win races,
[00:57:12] Jena: our job is to translate what they're saying in a meaningful way for everyone else to understand. We, we humanize what they're going through so humans can relate to them. And that's probably the. Clear, the cleanest way I can put that for other people to understand, like, you know, the licking and chewing a horse does.
[00:57:33] Well, you can't make a horse do that. Well, what does that mean? They will give you that as a reaction to something they're happy about. So when they, you know, drop their head or they give you a good role, they, they're constantly talking. They never shut up. Like they're always chattering. And so our job is to slow down and listen to that chatter.
[00:57:53] Good, bad, or indifferent. Why is that horse breathing that way today when they're training? Why are they short breath? Why are they a little tight through their neck? What, what's going on here that's different than before? And that's where I don't, some trainers don't wanna hear what a rider has to say. Oh, they don't know what they're talking about.
[00:58:07] I can do it with anybody. I wanna know what they're saying. They may not know what they're telling me, but I know what they're feeling is different. If a groom sees something, it may be nothing but it's different. And just tell me what's different. And it's up to me to figure out why it's different today.
[00:58:23] D Wayne: That's why, that's why after the. Preakness with Seize the Grey. I felt really comfortable, but I feel even better two and a half weeks later. I think I'm, I think he's telling me, just as you pointed out, he's, he's telling me every day that, uh, we're gonna be a little bit tougher. I'm a little bit bitter. And hell, we, we had him out there for the, the state bet to check him, and he jumped and squealed and played, and he's already had a good work this morning.
[00:59:00] Yeah. He's telling us he's, he's letting, he's making it easy to read. It's in capital letters right now.
[00:59:06] Jena: That was when, when Maggie had interviewed me before the Belmont, and that was her question to me was, well, what's he saying? And I, I clearly said, get out of my way. That's what he's saying. Get out of my way.
[00:59:16] You know, and that's, and that's our job, is to stay outta the way at times and, and know when, when they're thriving and doing their best and
[00:59:24] Lindsay: let
[00:59:24] Jena: them do them.
[00:59:25] Lindsay: If he goes out there and wins the Belmont,
[00:59:27] D Wayne: are these guys getting paid by the hour? Yes. We're wrapping up. We're wrapping up right now. Yeah. Where the hell are we going with this?
[00:59:34] Alright,
[00:59:34] Lindsay: it's a two day show. So, Mr. Lukas, last question. If, if Seize the Grey were to go out and win the Belmont, what would that mean to you?
[00:59:43] D Wayne: I, um, back in, and you can relate to this, what I'm gonna say. Back in the um, uh, eighties and nineties, the
[00:59:58] King of the Belmont, New York Nira circuit was Woody Stevens. And Woody was very, very competitive to a fault. And we clashed because we came in and we started beating Woody and Woody won and we won. And it was the very competitive. Uh, as he got older and he had retired and was on a nebulizer, we became very good friends.
[01:00:28] He would say, Wayne, let's have lunch together. And uh, I had to have lunch with him and he would of course tell me about his achievements. But he had the watch and he would, he had a watch that said Five Belmonts on it. Nobody had that watch. Nobody had one since. And he'd say, cowboy, you'll never win five Belmonts.
[01:00:53] He'd point to the watch like this. Well, I think he's looking down and he is really nervous. I think he's really nervous.
[01:01:03] Jena: I actually think he'll be rooting for you.
[01:01:05] D Wayne: Yeah. He might be rooting for, for you, but he'll be rooting for you. Yeah. At this stage of his, his, he might be, but not in the eighties. No way.
[01:01:14] You, the cowboy, you'll never win five Belmont. I think he's looking down saying, whew, watch out, this cam gonna do it. And if I win, uh, I might point out and say, Woody,
[01:01:28] Jena: where's my watch? Where's my watch?
[01:01:32] Lindsay: That's awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you guys. You bet. I learned so much from this conversation. It is extraordinary to me that D Wayne Lukas was able to do what he did and do it in such a hands-on way like he would up until the time when he left horse racing, which literally was days before he passed away of a, um, an infection.
[01:01:54] He was on his horse and he was one of the only trainers that was on their horse going out to watch his thoroughbreds that were warming up ahead of a, a huge race. And I am just so grateful it that I got to meet and interact with the same man that my dad did years ago. And that by comparing our stories, like, it's kind of like you realize all these special characteristics of people that have not only like made it, but just made a difference.
[01:02:21] You know? And Jena is so steadfast in the way that she does her job. And both of them, their, um, their relationship with the horses is something that really stands out to me and it's really awesome. And I loved when Wayne shared the fact that, you know, there's something different about this sport. He has that background in other sports, and there's just something that is different and special about horse racing.
[01:02:45] And I believe it's largely because of these amazing animals that you're working with day in and day out. Um, they get to bring you along on their ride. So. I hope that you love this episode as much as I did. Um, another sidebar is I have shared already that one of the things D Wayne Lukas told me that he hasn't shared with other people is the fact that he wrote poetry and he would almost write it daily and it was one of his outlets when he was away from the hustle and the bustle of the race track.
[01:03:11] And, um, I just wanted to mention that you can find that clip, read some of that poetry in the earlier things. No one tells you Podcast episode with Brian Hernandez and his wife Jamie, also on the blog post, featuring his poems shared by his wife Laurie. Um, it is linked in the show notes where you can read them.
[01:03:30] So that's it for this episode. Thank you so much, Jena. Thank you D Wayne. And um, I can't wait to see you guys next time. See you. Thanks so much for joining me. I can't wait to see you back here next week. Please don't forget, follow and subscribe to things no one tells you. And of course, if you're listening on Apple Podcasts, don't forget to leave a five star review because that's really what helps people get more.
[01:03:52] Listeners, we would love to grow this community. We are so grateful that you're a part of it. See you next time.
Edited Transcript
[00:00:00] D. Wayne: The thing that I always tell people is if you have a passion for it, you eliminate all the excuses. You'll go without lunch, you'll drive, you know, half a day to get somewhere. You'll go without sleep. With passion, you eliminate all the excuses and you start to get focused. You start to get focused to a point where maybe it isn't all good, but it does carry you to a level that you know you are hoping to get to.
But that's the difference. If I've been here 44 years, looking across that shed over there, if I were to lose that, that passion of weight and being excited about that horse, I would've been gone a long time ago.
[00:00:48] Lindsay: Hey, everybody, and welcome to Things No One Tells You. Today's really a special episode of TNOTY, as we call it.
This is one I've been waiting for the right time to share, and I've told you guys about my love of horse racing. Bear with me here because even if you're not into this sport, this episode is really one that I believe you will take something from because the lessons are similar to things we all go through.
It really boils down to things no one tells you about relationships with. Humans and horses. Um, and also just discovering your passion and carrying on the right attitude. Horse racing, for me, for a sidebar has been in my life for a long time because my dad covered it for years with USA Today.
And so he would always come home from his travels and share stories about what it was like, and he would talk about this legendary horse trainer from time to time named D. Wayne Lukas, and D. Wayne Lukas is like the Bill Belichick of horse trainers because he is such an innovator. He came on the scene decades ago and, really, as my dad shares, was one of the first trainers to understand his brand, and he was a coach before he was a trainer.
So he used this really, I think, connective tissue of coach speak with not only the media, but with his coworkers. He developed these barns that were lavish and beautiful, and really well-kept. So every time someone walked in the barns, they would instantly know, oh, that's D. Wayne Lukas, he would have flower baskets hanging beautiful white siding, and it really, up until he passed away in late June, it was very much the same thing. So the first time that I met D. Wayne Lukas, when I got involved in horse racing, was two years ago. And honestly, it was like this aha moment for me. I felt it came full circle. I had chills, and it really was this awesome connection that I was able to talk about with my dad because I had heard these stories for so long, and I had heard how he just sits outside of his office.
Along the shed row at the barns and he will sort of hold court and talk to people. And that's where I found him. Um, I found him outside his office in the shed row. And I just remember looking at him and being like. How lucky am I? I'm not crying. How lucky am I that I get to experience one of the things my dad has always talked about, and who would've thought I would've never thought that?
So anyway, the fact that I'm sharing this episode, um, after he's passed is sad. It means something to me to be able to share this because I asked D. Wayne Lukas after he won the Preakness. He won the Preakness in 2024, and it was the first time in a long time he had won a Triple Crown race. He is so accomplished in the sport, but it symbolized him getting back
to the top of the mountain, and all of the horse racing world came out to congratulate him because that's how much respect they have. But a sidebar is, he was doing it with the horse Seize The Grey, which was owned by a syndicate, which means the syndicate was my race horse, and. It's a group that people pay a minimal amount to own a tiny share of a racehorse.
And there were, there were more than 2,500 people involved in that horse. And when that horse won the Preakness, it was amazing for all of them. But it was also symbolic of someone who understood what it means to evolve and not just be involved as a leader in life, but also as a sport. So I asked Mr. Lukas if he would sit down, after the Preakness, with a
fellow horse trainer who became the first female trainer to win a Triple Crown race. It was Jenna Antonucci who won the Belmont with Arcangelo. Jenna has become one of my good friends, and I truly believe in every single thing that she does in this sport. I asked the two of them to sit together because I thought, how cool would it be to, at this point in the sport, be able to hear from such a legend in D. Wayne Lukas, but also to have the up and coming
future of sports, um, after a female had just accomplished what had never been done before. So they agreed to sit. It was an absolutely amazing conversation. I usually share levity with one of my jokes of the day, but today I wanna share a quote from D. Wayne Lukas himself. He said, “If you have a passion, you eliminate all the excuses. The most important decision you'll ever make in your life is your attitude decision. Make it early and make the right one.”
I love that so much, and I loved everything these two touched on in this conversation. D. Wayne Lukas, trainer, teacher, absolute legend, changed the game by paying attention, by adapting, also by understanding what others missed or were missing in this conversation with D. Wayne.
And Jenna was recorded, as I said before, at the 2024 Preakness, and what you're gonna hear is a mix of reverence of humor, of deep mutual respect between two trailblazers at very different times. It feels even more meaningful now that D. Wayne is no longer with us, and I am so honored to be able to share this moment with you.
You're both such innovators, Jenna becoming the first female. Trainer to win a Triple Crown race, Mr. Lukas created basically the model that everyone trains under.
[00:06:13] D. Wayne: That’s complimentary. I don't know about that.
[00:06:16] Lindsay: Well, you walk by these barns and you can see it, right? And, um, and I mean the, you know, winning your first Preakness in 11 years.
So I wanna start there with both of you and Jenna, I'm gonna start with you. What went through your mind when you were watching Wayne win the Preakness?
[00:06:33] Jena: Get it done. Yes. You know, obviously, I have a soft spot with Airgate, with our journey with Arcangelo, but we were just talking about this a second ago.
The minute I saw him loping along on the lead there, I was like, it's done. But I think you know, more than anything, not that we deserve anything. Everything we get from these horses is such a gift. But what. Wayne has given to this industry and his sacrifice for his life, and just giving of this community and of these horses to watch it happen.
At this point in his career, it's like, yes, like thank you. You guys got it right up there, like. He is deserving of it, sense. And so just watching the journey, and like you said, you know, there are 2,500 people that get to enjoy what that means. Like with the My Racehorse syndicate. Yeah. Right.
[00:07:19] D. Wayne: It's very complimentary of you to say that. I, um. I think that, uh, to get where we've gotten, uh,
[00:07:28] Jena: Well, that's complimentary. Yeah. Because I'm still swimming. You've
[00:07:30] D. Wayne: Gotta, you, well, you, you, you have to make a total commitment. You just have to you, everything becomes secondary to what you're trying to accomplish. And there's something about the horse industry that is different than other employment.
I, you know, I've coached for 10 years. I understand that part of, uh, my life, but. When you get involved with this, you bond and get so intense and so involved that everything else becomes secondary, uh, marriages, relationships, uh, deadlines to do something for yourself, all go out the window.
[00:08:10] Lindsay: So what was it like for you getting that win?
[00:08:14] D. Wayne: Well, I'd already got to the point where I, I felt very confident on that one, that we, I was very cocky, confident that we were gonna beat him, but, uh, to, to get that many people happy that I thought I was at a football, uh, pep rally. Really, I mean, it was, I've been on a cattle drive was more organized than that.
I mean, it was, it was it, they were pouring in there and I know they had drawn lots to see who could, you know, go in there and the actual winner circle, but the, the, that long lane there, everybody else, I, they thought, well, we're entitled to go and watch it. You know, so here they come. Actually, it ended up being, they were cheering and hugging, and it is interesting the most.
A profound comment that happened right after it. I was standing there waiting to go up, and an elderly woman was crying, and she said, I've wanted to own a horse all my life. I never dreamed I would own the Greekness winner. She says, I thought, lady, you're one of 2,740 people. But she said, I never thought I would win the Freakness, you know?
[00:09:28] Lindsay: But I mean, where does that land for you, though? Because it is also an opportunity of a lifetime that you are giving to these people.
[00:09:38] D. Wayne: It might be better for Jenna than for me. I'm, you know, I'm in, I'm at the quarter pole, and, uh, her career is flourishing right in front of her. I think that these, uh, multiple ownerships and everything are gonna benefit, uh, someone her age.
On the upward climb. Uh, I quit working on my resume a few years ago. I don't worry about it anymore. Um, I, as a gentleman, say I used to dress up and wear a tie every time. Now I just saddle the damn thing. But the, uh, I think these multiple ownerships are gonna help the younger people that are on the upswing, like she is.
[00:10:21] Lindsay: I did wanna ask you about the line of trainers that came to congratulate you. After that win. I mean, I would imagine that that was pretty unique and special.
[00:10:32] D. Wayne: That was special for Bob Baffert to walk across the muddy track
[00:10:37] Jena: That's a dirty shoe
[00:10:38] D. Wayne: Yeah, no, and come across there and gimme a handshake and a big hug.
I mean, that tas totally outta character for him. I think he, although he's been a tremendous, uh, supporter of mead. And I have of him. But, uh, you know, it, it, what happened was the, the competition, the other trainers right down the line. We were genuinely, I think, uh, happy and congratulated me and were happy for me, and a couple of'em made the comment that I couldn't win it.
I'm glad he did, which kinda surprised me because the general would tell you.
[00:11:14] Jena: Step over you.
[00:11:15] D. Wayne: For 40 years here we were kicking ass, and you don't always, uh, win everybody over when you're beating them all the time.
[00:11:23] Jena: That's a fair statement, and that would probably be my biggest surprise through my journey thus far, the genuine support and kindness from other horsemen in the industry.
Um, I don't care what industry you're in, when you're at the top, you know it's lonely at the top, and that expression is there for a reason. Um, and so.. I felt similarly through our journey with Arc, Angela, that people were actually genuine. And for me, it's like, I want, I want you to be who you are today, who you were to me yesterday.
I don't want you to be happy for me today because we did something unique or different and special. I don't like myself, that's fine. We're good. Be genuine to me today as you were to me yesterday. And so to have people reach out and to genuinely congratulate or be happy, you know, that something happened that wasn't about them, I thought was special.
[00:12:13] D. Wayne: I think you gotta add one thing, though. You did something that was special, and it was, uh, out of the box. You, you, uh, accomplished something that, uh. So many of the men and the world trainers were trying to do. And here you just slip right in there. And not only do you beat 'em, you make 'em like it. Uh, that's, I think that, uh, that was very kind.
That, as far as congratulations to everything, I think it was genuine because all the male trainers, the ones that were stepped back and said, damn, that she beat us, you know? And, uh, they were. Very appreciative of the effort and what you accomplished.
[00:12:59] Lindsay: Thank you. What was your take on watching that happen?
What did you think when you saw Jenna win the Belmont with an Angelo?
[00:13:06] Jena: When did you see me? What did you think? When I just didn't screw it up. Right. Because most of the time, you just have to not screw it up. Yeah,
[00:13:11] D. Wayne: I was, I was, uh, I, I was analyzing it a little bit. I thought, well, where do we go from here?
You know that? Because, uh, you know, it's a breakthrough deal and, uh, I, uh.
[00:13:25] Jena: What did you think about me bypassing the preps and going straight to the Travers?
[00:13:29] D. Wayne: I thought you were a little bit conservative. I thought I bypassing isn't in my vocabulary um, but to your credit, I always say that you can't make a generalization that back in two weeks or back in three weeks.
Is a, a general thing you can say about all horses. You, you have to ask the next question, what about the one I'm dealing with, what the horse in front of me is, the one that you have to make that judgment on. That's what we get paid for. To read into what the horse needs or doesn't need. If you skipped it without even knowing, I would have to say that you felt that he needed that and that you would be better in the Belmont, you know.
Uh, my horse, I would've liked to run him last Saturday. Seize The Grey. He would've home out of it. I thought I had him dead fit in the uh. Uh, Pat D Mile and I He ran very well, but I thought, well, we're really in great shape for the Preakness, but I have now found out that in looking at him and reading him, that I have no, I don't have any reservation about running him back in three weeks.
I think he'll run hugs.
[00:14:43] Jena: They just seem to thrive. I think maybe if there's any connection between, obviously, the Arcangelo and the Seize The Grey kind of that Arrogate underlying just seems to be, they just. Keep building.
[00:14:54] D. Wayne: Oh boy. That Arrogate thing, too. When we lost him, we lost.
[00:14:58] Jena: Yeah.
[00:14:59] Lindsay: Arrogate is the father of both Arcangelo and Seize The Grey.
Yeah, right.
[00:15:03] Jena: There's just an interesting stamina and cruising speed that I think we see in these two colts.
[00:15:10] D. Wayne: I think that the efficiency of motion that she's talking about is the key to both your horse and mine. Uh. I've got a couple of aptitudes that I think watch out for because they have that same movement.
Yeah. It was effortless to watch her horse on film. To do that. I mean, he really Seize The Grey after the Preakness was circling the track 'cause we couldn't get to the winner circle with all the people. And by the time he got in there, I'm, we as trainers, were always wondering how he pulled up?
What is he, is he blowing rubber-legged? What is he? Yeah. Steve was just standing there like, uh, well, what's next? What's next? Should we do it again, or am I ready?
[00:15:53] Jena: Yeah, and that's, I can definitely appreciate that with Arcangelo, obviously. Yes. Just like Wayne said, we know you're watching him gallop out. All the circuses are happening around us.
But I think horsemen are always staring at the horse. Where are we, where are we pulling? And there's some footage even after the Belmont where I'm literally scanning the track looking for my horse, 'cause that's honestly what I care about. Yeah.
[00:16:13] D. Wayne: After that first shock of watching, okay,
[00:16:15] Jena: We got it done. Okay, where's my horse?
Are we good? Is everything okay? How are they? Yeah. Meaning like, how is, how is he doing that moment? None of this happens without that. And that is what our, you know, what we fall asleep thinking about, what we wake up thinking about. I know it's a huge family adjustment, you know, for everyone around. You wake up and you're just going and it's like, yeah.
'Cause we have all that going on in the background. Yeah.
[00:16:36] D. Wayne: And, and we get analytical. Like, uh, when we were on that, um, run of I think six in a row. Yeah. Uh, triple crown races, A, B, C came to me and, uh, they said, could you. Uh, we're gonna have a camera on it today. Would you just show a little emotion? They said, just doing this, they said, could you just hug somebody or throw your fist in the air?
[00:17:00] Jena: They asked you to be somebody you're not.
[00:17:01] D. Wayne: Yeah, they actually wanted me to, and what you said to them, they said, if you win, just, you know, do something, look happy. Don't just look there and go.
[00:17:12] Lindsay: That's great. What'd you say to them? I said no, I, yeah. I said,
[00:17:16] D. Wayne: You get, I said. If you wanted Robert Redford, you should have hired him.
[00:17:21] Lindsay: You get me. You need to say, you get what you get. Yeah. You don't get upset. That's it. Um, I also think that there's a similarity, um, between the way that you both approach the people. Does that work with you? That works for you. Right. And, I think Jaime is a great example of that, too. Your decision to stick with Jaime as the jockey and the Preakness.
Can you talk a little bit about, like, what? What does that mean to you, the people part of all of this?
[00:17:46] D. Wayne: Well, I think the coach comes out at me daily. I, um, the, the, you know, Jaime, Keith, Aspen, similar, both too tall. We should cut a foot off of both of them. They're too tall to be good. They have to starve themselves to do the dream of
you know, being it, so you, you, they come and they sit down and you know, they're articulate and they're solid and they're good people. And, uh, the coach in me thinks all the time, let's help 'em, you know. And my whole career, I've, uh, tried to continue to teach, but once you're a teacher, you're always a teacher.
I thought Jaime gave, uh, off the right vibes for me that he would be okay. I wrote him here last year. He won, and uh, I liked him immensely. I thought he was smart. I went to, uh, Churchill and Keith Pheon again, almost a cologne. Walks up and says he is gonna start his career. And so we got him off to a stakes win and so forth.
So I think that comes from that background., I like to help those who are trying to help themselves.
[00:18:59] Jena: That part. Because we think both have helped people or wanted to grow people that, um. Don't want it for themselves. So when you find the ones that are willing to do that extra, that do the dirty work, that get in there and want it for themselves, you can't want something more for them than they want it for themselves.
And I know I've invested time and resources and emotional energy into people that you see it in them, but they don't have it, a nd they don't want it like that. And so as, as I've gotten older, I've learned to. Not, you know, dump into that person anymore and just say, okay, they wanna be a toll booth collector, that's fine.
Just go, you go be the best toll booth collector you can be. It's not gonna work for me for the long haul because I wanna bring that guy along. I mean, Giovanni Arcangelo’s groom started with me as a hot walker that had never been around horses, and he just had the opportunity to have, you know, the champion three-year-old.
So to watch his journey, that's what it's. For me, it's about the journey for the people around me and around the team because of their commitment and their deserving of this. And so to watch Fiona, my assistant, have that and her husband, you know, to watch them be able to have that journey and that experience, and we happen to be able to provide that platform for them, that is so much more gratifying for me to watch people live their dream and live their best life.
And we get to do that with these horses. That's the gift of, for me, what we do.
[00:20:24] D. Wayne: So well put, I told Jaime, I said, I'm gonna make you better than you wanna be. He said, What? Oh,
[00:20:30] Lindsay: That's so good.
[00:20:31] D. Wayne: I said, I'm gonna make you, if you hang around. Yeah. I'm gonna make you better than you wanna be.
[00:20:37] Jena: I'll invest in you.
[00:20:38] D. Wayne: Yeah, but
[00:20:39] Jena: You gotta, you
[00:20:40] Lindsay: You gotta work hard at it. Yeah, that's exactly what George Michael used to say to me. My boss. I was saying my boss used to do interviews 'cause he would cover horse racing in sports. But that, those types of things, that's the. The tone of a great leader is too. And Jenna was almost a pro athlete, also.
She's a golfer, an amazing golfer. So that's also, I think, an interesting connection that plays into, right? That whole thing.
[00:21:02] Jena: Right, yeah., I was pretty good at it. I took it as a blatant lie.
[00:21:05] D. Wayne: Well, you know what, there's a connection here in the chair. My brother,
[00:21:09] Jena: our butts on the chair, our connected,
[00:21:13] D. Wayne: My brother is in the NCAA Hall of Fame as a golf coach.
He had 27 All-Americans. Wow. He, you wouldn't think that's coming from a little dairy town up in Wisconsin, but he, he's in the Hall of Fame as a golfer and my only grandson, Jeff's son. Yep. Married the gal
[00:21:20] Jena: Brady, right.
[00:21:21] D. Wayne: That is way up in the PGA. That's awesome., They had the PGA, uh, open the other day.
Yeah, next to our house down there. And, but she's, uh, works for the PGA, so. One grand. We have one grandchild now, and
[00:21:51] Jena: great-grandchild.
[00:21:53] D. Wayne: Yeah. Great, and, uh, Brady had him that was holding him the other day and was taking his arm and going like this, and she interrupted and said, Noo, I know it's this, it's this.
[00:22:11] Lindsay: Oh my, how are they doing? What is it like for you to have them around this?
[00:22:16] D. Wayne: Grandchildren. Great-grandchildren. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just, I can't wait. And
[00:22:19] Lindsay: Also, Brady, you know?
[00:22:20] D. Wayne: Yeah. Well, Brady, we've skipped a generation, too. We're close. Brady, I think, looks at Lori and me like, uh, you know, we're his immediate parents.
We are, Brady and I are very close. The grandchildren are new great-grandchildren. A new experience for me. I, ush, Kelly, the only granddaughter we have, is a boy, too. And they were three weeks apart. They looked so much alike. Alike I have, I think we gotta be careful, don't dress 'em alike, 'cause we'll start, they just put one and one, we sell hot.
They don't have, they don't have a lip tattoo, so we can't tell which ones we're gonna get jibs that.
[00:23:00] Jena: Say one and one a, then we can have 'em separated.
[00:23:03] D. Wayne: But, uh, I can't wait till they're big enough to get on a pony.
[00:23:08] Jena: I don't know if you know this, um. And one thing I've always been really careful about and it's, it's something I'm big on.
I hate labels. Um, you know, I am who I am. Don't try and put me in a box for your comfort. And so my introduction, obviously in the thoroughbred side of things, was at Padua, and I did have the opportunity to know Jeff. And so to have that exposure to your program and to, you know, this industry through, and like Lindsay said previously, yeah.
You were the first one to make it; this is how it needs to be. This is the standard it needs to be. It should be the same at whichever one of my operations you go to. This is my program, and this is what I expect of you. And so I had had a high level of show horse competition, but my exposure to the thoroughbred world was through you, what you had built.
The n to be able, interesting to meet Jeff, you know, obviously, after his incident had happened. Was
[00:24:03] D. Wayne: Is that a stage of his life? It was that you should have known him before.
[00:24:06] Jena: He was intense. Yeah.
[00:24:07] D. Wayne: I've heard a lot of stories. Yeah.
[00:24:09] Jena: But he was a hell of a horseman, and he obviously got that from somewhere. And so that's something where everyone, everyone, when they learned that my exposure to the thoroughbred world was through your program.
Oh, so you worked for Wayne. I said, I promise you, Wayne does not remember me on a horse. I had you a stable 20-plus years ago. I was good, but it wasn't that good. But your, um, your expectation of the program you ran and run has created a lot of Hall of Fame production. Not even just from talk or ki or we can go down the list, but being that coach that put that out to these people, and it was, there was, I tell people all the time, there's a lot of good things and bad things that I learned from the program.
Yeah. You know, because you can't just do it one way. And how you've evolved and learned and shifted things as you've gotten older. But having expectation and expecting, um, excellence and exceptionalism. Um, is okay. And I think that's where we get into trouble with thinking. We can dumb it down for people, and it doesn't work.,
[00:25:11] D. Wayne: You know, it does not work.
Uh, I always tell those people that, uh, came to me, most of 'em will come and they'll sit where you're sitting. They'll say, I, I'm so glad it'd be part of it. I'm gonna do this. I'll work, I'll clean stalls. I'll walk, I'll stay at the barn all day, and everything. And I say, whoa, just stop right there. We're gonna test that.
That's a given. But here's what I want you to understand. If I commit to you and try to make you better than you wanna be, you fail. Say you don't live up to what you're talking about here. I have put two years into you or so, and you've wasted my time. Because I'm gonna get rid of you, and you'll be bagging groceries at the local grocery store.
I said, if so, don't think that it's that you're gonna do all these things and it's gonna be wonderful, because I'm gonna make a commitment too.
And it’s a two-way story. So I’ll stop right there, and we'll see how this turns out.
[00:26:20] Jena: Yeah. It's an action, right? Words are easy. And I live my life this way, and I think sometimes it drives some of the people around me.
That may not be in the horses, but I'm, I'm an action-driven person. Don't tell me you're gonna do something. Words are cheap. Show me, show me, show me in your actions. Yes, show up. Be there and show and do what you're saying, 'cause it's a, for words are procrastination, right? I'm gonna do this. If there's an ING there, I'm out.
Do it. Don't tell me you're going to do it. Do it. And then when I see you're doing it. And we'll talk more.
[00:26:51] D. Wayne: Don't you think it's easy to determine why she's so successful just sitting here listening to this?
[00:26:56] Lindsay: Well, yeah, and frankly, it's kind of the same as talking to you, right? Little cheat.
[00:27:00] D. Wayne: She's hitting a lot of the right boxes for me.
[00:27:05] Jena: Well, and I'm just trying not to piss people off.
[00:27:08] D. Wayne: Oh, I piss them off.
[00:27:10] Lindsay: The longetivity, I don't
[00:27:11] D. Wayne: I don’t worry about that.
[00:27:11] Lindsay: About but speaking of the longevity that Jenna is clearly going to have, I love that you guys like, I mean like do this for like longevity. Like I already feel like, I'm like, oh my god, I'm just kidding.
Well, you know, the fact that, and I know you've been asked this a lot, Wayne, but you know, the first Preakness win, in 1980. And then 44 years later, um, like, how have you done it? How have you continued to evolve and stay relevant and still be, be winning, you know, and also what, what did that part of it mean to you
[00:27:44] Jena: Besides the horses and owners?
Yes. Because that's the easy answer. Yes.
[00:27:47] D. Wayne: The uh, the thing that I always tell people is if you have a passion for it, you eliminate all the excuses. If you have a passion for your job or the cameraman has one for his job, or you eliminate the excuses, you'll go without lunch. You'll drive, you know, half a day to get somewhere.
You'll go without sleep. You will, uh, eliminate any social event that you might normally go to. With passion, you eliminate all the excuses and you start to get focused. You start to get focused to a point where maybe it isn't all good, but it does carry you to a level that you know you are hoping to get to.
But that's the difference. If I were to lose the passion, it, uh, I've been here 44 years looking across that shed over there and, uh, if I were to lose that, that passion of weight and being excited about that horse. It happens to be this one, this current one, but any of the others? Uh, I would've been gone a long time ago.
I had a chance in '70, maybe'766, to really change my coaching career to the point where I think I would've ended up as a head coach at Michigan. But, uh. I chose to stay with the horses because of Thathanku. I felt it was my calling. Thank you. It was what I should do.
[00:29:19] Jena: Thank you for doing that. Wow.
We find, we find excuses to make it happen, right? Like I think, oh yeah. Other people. Exactly what he's saying. Like they'll find, oh, I can't do that. It's gonna be, I don't wanna drive that far. We drive eight hours to watch him race for a minute and however many seconds. There's no logic in that. Why do you do it? It's dumb.
It's literally dumb. Why? How did you just travel for 12 hours or across the globe for that, for a minute, and whatever? I, I got, I got no answer. Like, because there is no logic past the passion about doing it. It's, you know,
[00:29:52] D. Wayne: Why does an 88-year-old man get in a truck and drive 15 hours to get his horse hair?
Yeah, be easy. They fly here, you know?
[00:30:00] Jena: They do, yeah.
[00:30:01] D. Wayne: They do fly here and they, uh, the truck driver doesn't give a damn fine with them or not, but I'm sitting right next to 'em because I feel like that is, uh, feels right where I should be, and I'm gonna make sure there's no trouble, nothing goes wrong.
[00:30:15] Lindsay: And that's why that's the answer.
[00:30:17] D. Wayne: Yeahh, try that sometime. Ride 15 hours in a heavy truck and see how you feel. You don't have to be 88. You'll feel like hell.
[00:30:27] Lindsay: But back with the horse. Not in the back, in the front. Right, right. Yeah. The air. It's not much better up there. Yeah, I hear you. So, so what, to you, what was the significance of,f ing that win of this, this Preakness win that you got?
What did it actually symbolize to you?
[00:30:45] D. Wayne: Again, it got back to, uh, what Jean is talking about. It got back to, uh. Being able to give all those people the, That was my seventh one. And I don't say that. I mean,
[00:31:00] Jena: They're special. They all have a different way that they rank. Yeah.
[00:31:02] D. Wayne: Every one of 'em is special for some reason or another.
So if you've won seven of them, and I'd say that with, I don't wanna be real. Yeah. Obnoxious about it. You immediately start thinking, boy, look what's happening here. They're hugging and crying and everything. What the hell is this all about? You know? And uh, I was, uh, uh, kind of blown away by the reaction, but personally.
Uh, it's another deal on my resume, but I quit working on my resume years ago.
[00:31:34] Jena: I had talked to Lindsay about this previously, a nd II a feeling this might resonate similarly with you. For me, because it's more meaningful for the people and this and that. There are some people who every win, like I don't have another way to word this.
Like, they get off on the win. Oh, I got another win. Yeah.
But it's, I don't have that. I like if we're doing everything that we're supposed to do, and the horses are placed right, and they're running their best race, and they're getting their trip. Yes, I expect to win that spot. We won it. We did our job, but it doesn't move the day-to-day needle.
[00:32:08] D. Wayne: Great. Great comment. Very true.
[00:32:12] Jena: And I think that's because this industry, I said, this industry gives zero craps about your feelings.
[00:32:18] D. Wayne: Zero. Not only that, but you win one like that. Believe it or not, you say, where's the condition book? Where's the next one?
[00:32:24] Jena: Yeah, that's fair. Yes. Even
[00:32:26] D. Wayne: If you win one on Thursday afternoon, where
[00:32:28] Jena: Am I going next?
And it's not because you wanna, of course,
[00:32:31] D. Wayne: Yeah. You haven't even gotten outta the winter circle in your mind, saying, I wonder if he'll be eligible for that one. Uh, three weeks from now,
[00:32:37] Lindsay: he's right. And what drives that? Is it the. Wanting to do the job the best way, or is it the one to be back in that victory circle?
[00:32:45] D. Wayne: It’s That's a competitive spirit.
[00:32:47] Lindsay: Yeah.
[00:32:48] D. Wayne: We're competitive to a fault.
[00:32:51] Lindsay: Yes. Yes.
[00:32:52] D. Wayne: About everything. Everything. That's why I speed all the time. I wanna beat the car in front of me all the time. I wanna beat the GPS
[00:32:58] Jena: If that GPS says I'm getting there at six 15. Yeah, I'm getting there at least six 14, if not six 10.
[00:33:04] D. Wayne: I'm driving on the freeway, nd the guy's going 80. I gotta go 85. I gotta get ahead of him.
[00:33:09] Jena: Do you get a lot of speeding tickets? Let's not talk about that on camera, ma'am. Wow.
[00:33:17] D. Wayne: Did I ever say I was friends with the governor? Thank god,
[00:33:22] Lindsay: Sir. Let's talk about the situation. What about it when it comes to, and I think, you know, Mr. Lukas was saying that, ask you about what, that, the syndicate situation and bringing those fans along, talking about the sport and evolving, and the need for it to evolve.
What do you think when you look ahead at the landscape?
[00:33:41] Jena: There's a time, there's often that I'm very envious of the time that Wayne was able to do his career. Because I'm envious that you have a flip phone, by the way. What is that like? No social media, right? Right. We didn't have social, we didn't have I, we never had an opinion, but it didn't make it really pass their lips to the people they were talking to immediately with them.
And so you've asked me this previously, like coming into the big weeks and stuff. How do I manage it? I have to turn all the white noise down because it's so much. Exactly. And so, you know. Finding other things to have your quiet time is very important. Um, you know, people, the better you do, the more they want to take.
And so you can only give emotionally so much, whether you're a man or a woman. And so it's, you've gotta find those quiet times and those, those areas to, to recharge. But the syndicates are necessary. And the reason it's necessary is that society has changed. Um, we don't have the titans of ownership like we used to.
[00:34:40] D. Wayne: That’s right. We're these horses aren't affordable to very many people, correct?
[00:34:43] Jena: Correct, and that's just a landscape change in the world. And so recognizing that that's just how the world is now, you know, to teach us sitting here and saying, as an industry and the haters of our industry saying, it's a dying thing.
No one wants to be around it, da da da. It's us making it relatable and accessible to people thawhoe curious. Okay, I can spend a hundred bucks or 200 bucks and learn more about this. And maybe that converts them to a bigger ownership percentage or more involvement. And then they have five friends who are whoous to what they're doing, and those five friends have another few friends.
And so it is, that's the part of it that while I appreciate there are traditionalists that don't like the idea of the syndicate and don't, oh, you don't really own that horse. You own a hair. Fine. You are allowed to feel that way, but it doesn't diminish what these people in this section of people are getting out of this.
And it doesn't have to be for everybody. I'm not for everybody. He's not for everybody. And that is completely fine. It's just us learning this new landscape and how we get communicated to these people, and making sure that they're having the best possible experience and exposure to this. And we are learning this on the fly.
My race horse is figuring it out. Centennial has theirs.
[00:35:57] D. Wayne: I never thought I would, uh. Get, I didn't think I would take, I had reservations about taking this horse, you know? Oh, yeah. When they approached me, I, first of all, I, I, I didn't know what he was, what, you know, again, he was an irrigator, really? Let me out.
But, but I, uh, I would, I had great reservations. I thought, uh, I thought there were 500 owners or 200. I didn't know. When they started telling me there were over 2000, I thought, oh geez, where in the hell is this gonna go? Because, you know, that could get outta control. But they do a remarkable job of letting the people enjoy it and don't get in, uh, you know, your backyard too much.
[00:36:37] Jena: Our biggest challenge as a trainer, not to speak for you, but I'll be shocked if you don't agree, is time management with owners, because everyone is desperate for time and updates, and knowing what's going on. And the idea that you have 2,500 people. There's no way I can update all those people on what's going on.
And so we only have so much to give and keep everyone updated about everything else that's happening in the barn and how their horses are training or what races you're going to, or here's an update, or we have to talk about this situation. That's the biggest time suck is dealing with the people.
[00:37:10] D. Wayne: 40 years ago, I started going through the crowd, or I'd have Lori or whatever go through the crowd, and just find a child.
6, 7, 8. Five years old and just walk out to perfect strangers and say, Look, come on, we're gonna go in the winner circle with this horse.
[00:37:29] Jena: Always has.
[00:37:30] D. Wayne: And I took every race I have, I've won over four or $5,000, uh, races now. So that's 5,000 times I've taken a child to the winter circle. Oh my god, they have an unbelievable experience in most cases, and I tell the parents.
Lori will take 'em back and say, be sure and tell 'em that if they wait 20 minutes, they can go because of digital cameras, they can go get the picture now. And it's, uh, on my account, you know. And, uh, most of 'em go get it and then try to find me and get it signed, you know? Yeah. But we, if we, if there's not a small child in our picture, it's because none of 'em are in the grandstand.
We find them and uh, Lori might say, there's one down by the eighth pole. I said, well, go get 'em, you know?
[00:38:19] Jena: Oh my gosh. And the irony is that the first time I was up here for a win picture for my grandparents, they wouldn't let me in the win picture. Oh really? There's a picture of me, the horse's name was CLM Rose.
She won, and I am crying because I couldn't get out there, 'cause it was when they were still doing some of the dirt. Oh. They had, and I ring and the lime, I'm standing on the wall like with bloodshot red eyes because Yeah, that's So anyways, I love that. That's the irony. Why was that so important to you?
[00:38:45] D. Wayne: Because I, I, uh, grew up as a kid dreaming, uh, you know, trying to win little races at the county fair and everything, and I, I, I knew the experience was special, and so I thought, you know, how easy is that? I tried to talk Bedford into it, and some other guys, they don't do it, you know, it's so easy. What the hell?
You just grab a kid and come in, and you take him to his parents, shake hands, and
[00:39:12] Jena: But the optics, so I think you gotta hear the excuse. So impressionable, I'm sorry, is right. As a child, how we see and absorb things is so much bigger than maybe what it is to an adult. Yes. So to have a child have an opportunity to do that is, oh boy, very impressionable.
And it stays with them.
[00:39:32] D. Wayne: Does it ever?
[00:39:33] Jena: Forever.
[00:39:34] D. Wayne: They get the trembling and shaking, and they do say, Oh my god, he's so big. You know? But, the beautiful thing is I have letters that I get, or I'll be at the Kentucky Derby, and a guy will walk up and he'll say, Remember? And I'll say, no, I don't.
He said, Well, you probably wouldn't. He said, When I was nine years old, you took me to the winner circle, and I'm a lawyer now. And, uh, I have that. And I have a picture of you and me when I was a kid on the wall. That's what matters. That's amazing. I still have it. And he'll say, Do you remember what you told me?
And I'll say, no, what did I tell you? And he, he said, you told me. Not to talk to any girls and not to talk to any strange girls. And remember, all the girls are strange,
[00:40:21] Jena: But it, it leaves a forever mark for people. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, and for young, for young people, and you've asked me, like, what has this journey meant for me?
And, and I, I said it's a gift in that way to have the opportunity to tell people about what we do and why we do it. And that if it. To convey that and to give them something to look through is a gift. And these horses give us that gift to make a change and to make an opportunity like that, and to make an impression upon someone for the rest of their lives is a gift.
Yep. Not everyone has that opportunity. And so that's where I jokingly say like, I don't wanna screw that up, but it means so much, and the horse gives us that little platform to make a change. You know, what you said, you know, stuck with me and, and I've, you know, I hear it and, and it's like, wow, okay. I didn't realize.
Thank you for that. And so those are the gifts that are in return for me,
[00:41:16] D. Wayne: For sure, for both of us.
[00:41:18] Lindsay: And I love the way you talk about that with our horses, too. The horses are a gift. And I think the way that both of you. Um, managing your horses is similar to Right? And it's not, not, I mean, I'm, and I'm not saying anything negative about any trainers, but it's a little bit different.
You're much, am I right to say that you're, you're very horse focused, very hands-on, very horse focused.
[00:41:39] D. Wayne: If you're successful, you are. Without naming names, I think that anybody who's successful doing this is damn sure hands-on.
[00:41:47] Jena: I've said more 'cause everyone, of course, oh, with having success, you must have all these horses down.
Like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Time out. I don't wanna be a horse manager. I wanna be a horse person. And when your numbers get too big and you've gone through this, through your career. Some, you had great horsemen that worked for you. Yeah,
[00:42:04] D. Wayne: Well, I, that's what I, that's how we changed the game right there by me. I got that from my coaching background. I knew that I needed a tight end coach, a linebacker coach, and a quarterback coach.
I couldn't have those in three divisions, but here was my thought process. I watched when I came over from the quarter horses, Charlie Winningham, Lasser, these greats would've 20 horses at Santa Anita, but they were only getting a lot of production from maybe half of them, and the other half were pretty much nowhere.
So, I said to my son, What we're gonna do is we're gonna make every horse productive. So we'll decide which ones can run at Santa Anita. If they can't compete at Santa Anita, we'll take the next four and put 'em in Monmouth Park, and we'll take uh, uh, another four or five that are really good at Belmont.
So we started putting those divisions. But to do that, I had to have Mark Headache, Todd, Cher, Dallas, Stewart, Mike Maker, George Weaver, Chairman Buffin,
[00:43:16] Jena: You know? Yep, 'cause he didn't just go get assistant coaches that were. Average. No, he expected exceptionalism from them. He was, he was tough. And did it, he explained that he wasn't, he wasn't like a soft shoulder.
Oh, are you having a bad day? It was, suck it up better because we got things to do.
[00:43:37] D. Wayne: Let's go. You're having a bad day. I'll kick your ass right out front. I'll make it even better.
[00:43:41] Jena: Yeah. So I mean, that's, and how was
[00:43:43] Lindsay: That received?
[00:43:44] Jena: Look at their careers like a student to
[00:43:46] Lindsay: Your coach, right?
[00:43:47] Jena: Look at their careers. How was it received? Like that's how it was received. The ones you're gonna get it done and you're gonna do it here.
[00:43:52] Lindsay: You had your process and here, and here was your game plan. Did it, was it, did it just work like from, or were there hiccups along the way, or did it just,
[00:44:01] D. Wayne: It worked because of my son.
[00:44:01] Lindsay: Jeff
[00:44:05] D. Wayne: It, it, I probably couldn't have, uh, didn't say agree.
I think I, he's so, uh, he was intense, liked me intensely, and everything. And uh, like if you go interview Todd Cher, Todd's gonna say he learned more from Jeff than he learned from me, because he was right under Jeff. And Jeff was very, very hard also. So, I was very, very much hands-on with all of them, but he was too.
So, they got it from both sides. And then when one of them got, uh, good, we gave him more leeway and more leeway and more leeway and uh, uh, I used to force him into certain situations like Todd was down at Gulfstream, for example. We'd be in the, uh, Florida Derby, and the press would call me up and they'd say, What about your derby horse?
I'd say, how the hell do I know I'm three thousand miles away? Ask Todd, you know?
And force 'em into taking in the interview, force 'em to deal with the owner. That's, I used to tell 'em in the, in the tech room, I'd say. We got a little bad news here today. We got an ankle fracture, so I'm gonna get on the phone.
I want you to sit here and listen to this. And I'm gonna explain what happened. I want you to pick up on how we do it and how I'm gonna explain it. And, uh, I'd say I'm gonna give 'em the bad news. But I'm gonna enter and go at the end. It'll be very positive. We're gonna be very, the thoughts can be very positive.
I'm not gonna leave 'em on a downer, a nd I say, I want you to listen to this. And I, there were things like their personal, uh, I, I always thought as a kid that people were impressed with the script. With your handwriting.
You know, I'd see people write and they'd say, boy, you have beautiful penmanship, so.
Without being boastful. I got a beautiful pen richer.
[00:46:05] Jena: It does.
[00:46:05] D. Wayne: And so I would write on the top of a legal pad. Uh, we are going to run into Belmont steaks, and I'd say write that 50 times, and I'll look at it in the morning, and we're talking about a 30-year-old kid looking at it and saying, are you serious? I say, yeah, I'm serious. Write it. Practice it.
[00:46:27] Jena: Do you feel?
[00:46:28] D. Wayne: Most of them have really improved.
[00:46:29] Jena: Oh my gosh. Do you feel that because we spend a lifetime reading a silent language, reading a horse, listening to the horses, that it makes us better at reading the room with people?
[00:46:45] D. Wayne: Oh, absolutely. I think, I think between my coaching, uh, background and.
But you're just talking about absolutely. I always thought that, uh, I could put 30 kids on the floor and I could, I could probably pick the best 10 without ever.
[00:47:05] Jena: talking to them.
[00:47:06] D. Wayne: Yeah, just
[00:47:06] Jena: Read the room. Just, yeah, just, just
[00:47:08] D. Wayne: Let 'em, let 'em shoot around for a little while, and I'll tell you which ones I wanna say,
[00:47:12] Jena: but also in delivering the news to people, you gotta read the room and know how you need to give and how you need to deliver it, because.
This is a hard business. The pendulum swings both ways. You have the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. And so yeah. I'm gonna call and give you a turd sandwich right now, but it's got really good condiments on it. Yeah. And a great side. So see the bright side, you know,
[00:47:34] D. Wayne: The yeah and the message, uh, covers a lot of different industries.
I had the privilege, or I did it, uh, ipo, did the keynote speech for Microsoft. At the, uh, Omni in Atlanta, 1700 executives from all over the world. Now, when this woman got up and started to introduce the horse trainer that's gonna speak to him, you can imagine the reaction of the crowd. Oh, really?
Yeah. I mean, I said to Bill Gates. This is gonna be a tough audience. He said, You'll be fine. This is gonna be a lift. Yeah. Yeah. So what happened? Well, I went to the podium.
[00:48:26] Lindsay: You nailed it. Yeah.
[00:48:27] D. Wayne: Yeah, I went to the podium and I said, Sit up, get your feet on the floor and straighten up your back. 'cause what I got to say, you, you can use, I didn't even say good morning.
[00:48:37] Lindsay: So what was your overarching message in that talk? Well,
[00:48:40] D. Wayne: I talked about, I didn't talk about horses at all. I talked about getting from here to there. And how, you know, you know, things that I think were important to do and so forth. So fascinating.
[00:48:55] Lindsay: You, um, you also shared about when you, when you created sort of the way that you do things, Mr.
Lukas with the barns, the flowers, the suits in the beginning, yeah. What went into that thought process? Why? Well,
[00:49:10] D. Wayne: I wanted, uh, there are two things. First of all, we're gonna spend 18 hours a day at the barn, so why not make it nice? Um, the other thing is I wanted, uh, her clients to walk by my barn and say, The hell is that?
Uhhuh? Yeah. Who, who, who runs that up? Because right away. You got 'em thinking, well, that that's a different deal there. What's his day rate? You know, it's probably the same as yours. So, uh,
[00:49:39] Jena: Compel people.
[00:49:40] D. Wayne: Yeah. So, so, I did that. The other thing is, uh, the discipline in the barn, uh, when you discipline outside the stall and demand a certain amount of cleanup.
Polish, whatever. It'll carry over to the effort they put into the horse in the stall. It'll carry over. You are drilling them and teaching them. Uh, I'll give you an example. Um, I swung by the barn at Churchill and, uh, just seven, eight o'clock at night, seven 30, and I glanced in and one of the horses had let the hind bandage slip.
He probably was stomping flies or something, and it slipped down. Well, I said to the man, I said, we gotta change the advantage, reset it. He said, I'll get it. I said, no, no, no. I said, You stay out of there. I said, it's about seven 30. I want you to set your alarm for nine 30 or 10 o'clock. No, no earlier. And I want you to go upstairs.
Get him out of the room. Make him dress, come back down, set the bandage, and then go back to bed. I said he will never leave the barn again with that bandage like that.
[00:51:06] Jena: Never loved it.
[00:51:09] D. Wayne: That's the way we think
[00:51:10] Jena: We’ve gotten soft. Right?
[00:51:12] D. Wayne: Yeah, I have soft and a little bit,
[00:51:14] Jena: But the culture in society's gotten a little soft.
[00:51:16] D. Wayne: Oh, the whole thing, are you kidding? Yeah.
[00:51:20] Jena: And so doing that one time. Like, I don't have children of my uterus, but I'm able to enjoymen'ss children and it's, and it's not a little, come on now. Come on, now you do it one time. That's inconvenient, and one time that I expect it here, and it's repeatable when it's okay.
Okay. Just don't do it now. Okay, that's enough. Okay. Then it just becomes bigger, and then you just start accepting more things that aren't good enough.
No, get your ass outta bed, do it right. Are you gonna wear your underwear half hanging off your leg all night? No. You're gonna fix it right away.
Fix it, do it right, do it right. Do it right now.
[00:52:01] Lindsay: Yeah. No, there is a lot of value in that. Jenna, if you're thinking back to the course of this past year, is there one moment or a memory that stands out to you the most, that you feel after winning the Belmont?
[00:52:15] Jena: Watching him win the Preakness?
[00:52:17] D. Wayne: Thanks for that.
[00:52:20] Lindsay: How about you, Mr.
[00:52:22] D. Wayne: I think that you've already, uh, referred to it. I think, uh, the little exchange I made with those, those fans, my peer group coming over to the winner circle.
[00:52:32] Lindsay: What about over the course of your career? Is there, is there a horse or a memory that to you? When do you think back means the most?
[00:52:40] D. Wayne: Well, I think that hit right on, on that subject. Every year, every horse gives you a different scenario, a different feeling, a different, I have a story after story after story. Obviously, with the, I've been blessed with a lot of nice horses. Uh, you know, it, uh. It's hard to say. The people say, What is your best horse?
What was your favorite horse? You know? Well, what year are you talking about? You know, when I, I have, you know, different favorites, different times I thought that I won to Kentucky Derby four times. They say, well, you had to be happiest with the first one. No, the third one was the one that jumped out because it was for Bill Young, who became a dear friend of mine.
And, uh, when I was able to share that derby with them, that was the best one.
That one was better than the other three. So it just depends on what year or what time every horse teaches. Yeah. They're all teaching every day. What we get paid to do is read. Their personalities, if you want, call it that, and, uh, determine where they need to be straightened out, where they need to be loved, where they need to be pushed forward, backed up on.
That's what we get paid to do. And the ones that do it the best win races,
[00:54:09] Jena: Our job is to translate what they're saying in a meaningful way for everyone else to understand. We humanize what they're going through so humans can relate to them. And that's probably the clearest, the cleanest way I can put that for other people to understand, like, you know, the licking and chewing a horse does well, you can't make a horse do that.
Well, what does that mean? They will give you that as a reaction to something they're happy about. So when they, you know, drop their head or they give you a good role, they're constantly. Talking. They never shut up. Like they're always chattering. And so our job is to slow down and listen to that chatter.
Good, bad, or indifferent. Why is that horse breathing that way today? When they're training, why are they short of breath? Why are they a little tight around their neck? What? What's going on here that's different than before? And that's where I don't, some trainers don't wanna hear what a rider has to say. Oh, they don't know what they're talking about.
I can do it with anybody. I wanna know what they're saying. They may not know what they're telling me, but I know what they're feeling is different. If a groom sees something, it may be nothing, but it's different, and just tell me what's different, and it's up to me to figure out why it's different today.
[00:55:20] D. Wayne: That's why, that's why after the Preakness with Seize The Grey, I felt really comfortable, but I feel even better two and a half weeks later. I think I'm, I think he's telling me, just as genius pointed out, he's. He's telling me every day that, uh, we're gonna be a little bit tougher. I'm a little bit bitter.
And hell, we, we had him out there for the, the state vet to check him and he jumped and squealed and played, and he'd already had a good work this morning. Yeah. He's telling this, he's, he's letting, [00:56:00] he's making it easy to read. It's in capital letters right now.
[00:56:03] Jena: That was when Maggie had interviewed me before the Belmont, and that was her question to me, well, what's he saying?
And I, I clearly said, get out of my way. That's what he is saying. Get out of my way. You know, and that's, and that's our job, is to stay out of the way at times and, and know when, when they're thriving and doing their best and let them do them.
[00:56:22] D. Wayne: These guys are getting paid by the hour. Yes, we're wrapping up. We're wrapping up right now.
Yeah, where the hell are we going with this? Alright, it's a two-day show.
[00:56:30] Lindsay: No, thank you. Thank you. Thank you guys.
[00:56:33] D. Wayne: You bet.
[00:56:33] Lindsay: I learned so much from this conversation. It is extraordinary to me that D. Wayne Lukas was able to do what he did and. Do it in such a hands-on way like he would up until the time when he left horse racing, which literally was days before he passed away of an infection, he was on his horse and he was one of the only trainers that was on their horse going out to watch his thoroughbreds that were warming up ahead of a, a huge race.
And I am just so grateful that I got to meet. Interact with the same man that my dad did years ago, and by comparing our stories, like it's kind of like you realize all these special characteristics of people that have not only like made it, but just made a difference. You know? And Jenna is. So steadfast in the way that she does her job.
And both of them, their, um, their relationship with the horses is something that really stands out to me, and it's really awesome. And I loved it when Wayne shared the fact that, you know, there's something different about this sport. He has that background in other sports, and there's just something that is different and special about horse racing.
And I believe it's largely because of these amazing animals. That you're working with day in and day out, um, they get to bring you along on their ride. So. I hope that you love this episode as much as I did. Um, another sidebar is I have shared already that one of the things Dwayne Lukas told me that he hasn't shared with other people is the fact that he wrote poetry, and he would almost write it daily, and it was one of his outlets when he was away from the hustle and the bustle of the race track.
And, um, I just wanted to mention that you can find that clip, read some of that poetry in the earlier things. No one tells you, Podcast episode with Brian Hernandez and his wife Jamie, also on the blog post, featuring his poems shared by his wife, Lori. Um, it is linked in the show notes, where you can read them.
So that's it for this episode. Thank you so much, Jenna. Thank you, D. Wayne, and um, I can't wait to see you guys next time. See ya. Thanks so much for joining me. I can't wait to see you back here next week. Please don't forget, follow and subscribe to things no one tells you. And of course, if you're listening on Apple Podcasts, don't forget to leave a five-star review because that's really what helps people get more.
Listeners, we would love to grow this community. We are so grateful that you're a part of it. See you next time.
